How do you 'nudge' your players away from tank mentality? (and high magic games)

[monboesen]

Emirikol it sounds like you would like a lower powered game with fewer magic items. That is not a bad thing, in fact that is what my group has been doing for 20 years.

But in that case D&D out of the book is definately not for you. Based on my own experience there are several options to achieve what you want.

1. Keep the game at low level and use D&D rules more or less as written. This aproach will work with some difficulties up to around 8-9th level. At that point people and monster will start to hit with almost all their attacks (as attack bonus has far surpassed AC bonus) and spell casters (monsters with supernatural powers) start to dominate the game completely.

2. Find a game system that matches your needs more closely. At this point I'm looking fondly at True20, but I'm sure that other systems can do well too.

3. House rule D&D in order to get the effect you want. Our current house rules game sounds a lot like what you want. Few but cool permanent magic items, more transient magic items, "normal" foes stay dangerous and so on. We regularly discuss whether the rules changes are accomplishing what we want in order to stay on track. The actual rules changes are

a) a class dependant AC bonus (fighters get the best, wizards the worst)
b) a feat every level and +2 skill points every level
c) slow leveling
d) and likely we will simply stop normal leveling a about 10th level and make rules for bying feats and class abilities with XP from there on (making better BAB, HP, Saves, AC and so on achieveable only by relevant feats like Toughness, Iron will and so on).

 

[Ghendar]

I definately wouldn't punish the tank player. If a player wants to play a tank, they should be able to play a tank. And the problem doesn't lie with the tank. The problem lies with everyone else.

Totally agree with this.
On a personal note, I think a "tank" is a huge asset to a party.

 

[Remathilis]

I will definately concede you that! ..but, if your DM is metagaming (i.e. CHEATING) that much, then you might want to have a talk with him That's as bad as a player looking up the AC of a monster so he can estimate the power attack.

Not really. Which is easier to hit: a dude in leather armor and a buckler or a dude in full plate and a tower shield? Any competent warrior should know that the latter will be harder to crack a solid blow to, so they should focus their efforts into hitting, while the latter is easy to slash apart, so go for more damaging blows

Our group is hitting 8th right now and it's working out as I expected. Because of the lack of 'super-armor' and massive-blast spells, we can still play a 'normal' game. In most campaigns, the DM wouldn't even bother with 'normal' creatures (angry mobs, wolves, lions, rhino's, rabid dogs, etc) and would instead be throwing Balors and crap at the party for sheer boredom for how powerful the group already is.

I manage to harass and nearly kill a group of 10th level probaby better-than-they-should-be magically PCs with a handful of frost giants (and 1 frost giant cleric5). No Balors yet.

However, you're not looking for escalating challenge; a rabid wolf should be a challenge at 1st level and a challenge at 8th. If thats true, D&D is not your game...

Our other bbn player comes back next game...two bbn's in the party of rogues...sigh. Good thing there's some regular interaction going on..that, and we've already outlawed the frenzied berserker class..it would just be too over the top in this game. I don't want to punish the bbn players becasue the rogues realize how valuable they are..but I don't want the game to degenerate into stupid toe to toe D&D combats with big, fat monsters just to entertain 1/6th of the players while the other 5 sit there and watch.

Or what your trying to say is "Since half my players suck it combat, its not fair for some of them to actually be GOOD at it, since it forces me to use monsters appropriate to thier CR and not have them spooked by goblins"?

And isn't fair play to say "the bbn smacked around those 5 thugs, now mister +20 intimidate/bluff, talk to them and ask them about their bosses plan?" Not everyone is going to be good at everything. You have 5 multi-classed rogues effectively and two heavy hitters, they come from different worlds in terms of build.

Barbarians draw their power from: high strength/con, high hp's, and use of massive weapons. The only one that the DM can reasonably control is..."I rage with my....dagger?" unless he's going to start messing with the player and 'removing fun, "well, you have a cruddy Charisma..shut up and go sit in the corner while the rest of the PC's have fun."

Um... Who is controling this PC? You or the player? Yeah, a barbarian is designed to deal out damage THAT IS THERE JOB!!!!!!!!! Its like complaining that sorcerers can't fight in melee or that fighters are poor healers! What your effectively doing is crippling his niche; not unlike removing the two-spells a level and then never giving a PC wizard a spellbook/scroll. Yeah, the PC wizard isn't nuking/teleporting around; all he can do is empower magic missile!

Does 'nudging' them without punishing them seem better? Thoughts? Will I have the same problem when the next PC dies and they make a fighter?

Honestly, if I was the bbn player, I'd have 'nudged' myself out the door and into another game. I might reccomend the generic PC construction from Unearthed Arcana, or Iron Heroes, C&C, or Trued20, but I'll make it even simpler; why don't you roll-up the PCs you want and let them attach names, personalities and genders to them? That way, you have the PERFECTLY balanced party.

 

[Sejs]

You know, I think some of the issue here stems from the fact that you only have one tank. The rest of the party are a bunch of cremepuffs.

If you had no tanks, that'd change the tone of the game significantly. The pendulum'd swing more to the stealth-and-ambush end of things, the game would have to be adjusted accordingly, but everything would more or less be in balance.

If you had more tanks instead of just the one, then it wouldn't be an issue of one guy rushing in headlong and stealing all the spotlight, slapping out big chunks of enemy left and right. Everyone'd get in on the action equally and again things would gravitate more toward a state of balance.

Neither is inherrently better, and the issue isn't that By God the Barbarian Is Overpowered, it's that your interparty balance is all out of whack.

 

[Emirikol]

Not really. Which is easier to hit: a dude in leather armor and a buckler or a dude in full plate and a tower shield? Any competent warrior should know that the latter will be harder to crack a solid blow to, so they should focus their efforts into hitting, while the latter is easy to slash apart, so go for more damaging blows.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't use it, but we're not talking about leather armor here. Monsters with meaningufl power attacks are HIGH CR. By that point a typical D&D group has tons of magical pansy AC-buffing stuff. If the DM didn't know what the AC was it would be one thing, but most DM's know and are essentially cheating if they use that knowledge to do their power attack.

but I'll make it even simpler; why don't you roll-up the PCs you want and let them attach names, personalities and genders to them? That way, you have the PERFECTLY balanced party.

Rule 0. Play nice. I didn't realize this got you so worked up. I'm just attempting to help the player fit his character into the party instead of falling into the "tank" trap and asking for friendly advice from you guys. He can do what he wants, but I'd rather not have somebody pouting at my table thinking that the other 5 players need to cater to his powergaming (which is what is happening).

jh


..

 

[Emirikol]

Look at the PHB II alternative rage, berserker strength. I think it could give a tiny bit of help for you.

Cool, I'll check it out. Like I say, I don't want to determine his future, I just want to 'nudge' him.


jh

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'm not saying that they shouldn't use it, but we're not talking about leather armor here. Monsters with meaningufl power attacks are HIGH CR. By that point a typical D&D group has tons of magical pansy AC-buffing stuff. If the DM didn't know what the AC was it would be one thing, but most DM's know and are essentially cheating if they use that knowledge to do their power attack.

In a low magic world, the monster will never have seen a "typical" D&D group buffed up and with tons of magical equipment upping their AC. Thus, the monster would have absolutely no reason to hold back on power attacks.

I'd rather not have somebody pouting at my table thinking that the other 5 players need to cater to his powergaming (which is what is happening).

I think the major dispute here is that nobody but you seems to see him as powergaming.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'm not saying that they shouldn't use it, but we're not talking about leather armor here. Monsters with meaningufl power attacks are HIGH CR. By that point a typical D&D group has tons of magical pansy AC-buffing stuff. If the DM didn't know what the AC was it would be one thing, but most DM's know and are essentially cheating if they use that knowledge to do their power attack.

The newer monster books have suggested Power Attack values precisely because GMs have this problem.

The Lord of Blades has a suggest Power Attack value of 4, for instance.

(Of course, the entries are a bit less useful in that they sometimes don't give the unmodified attack bonus, which is annoying. WotC has lots of editing errors.)

If you're not willing to use a monster to its full capabilities, that's probably another hint that you should change either the house rules or the system.

Since you're running Hyboria, maybe you could try D20 Conan instead.

 

[Herobizkit]

Emirikol, I do sympathize with you. I've had games where one PC was the combat tank and the others were "normal" by comparison. It was difficult to take my attention off that fact, and I felt like I constantly had to over-compensate goodies and monsters to challenge the uber-warrior. I was running d20 Modern at the time, though.

Since it seems that our situations are similar, I feel it's safe to say that I think the issue is with YOU rather than the player. If everyone is having fun, there really is no issue. If YOU'RE not having fun, you need to figure out *why*.

If the issue you're having is "too many" magic items, and you're running an out-of-the-box WotC product, you're already fighting a losing battle. The pre-gen adventures account for the "correct" ampount of treasure PC's should have at every level, a fact that has been made painfully aware to you by this point, I'm sure.

The absolute easiest way to keep the magic to a minimum is to make and run your own adventures. This way, you have complete control over what monsters, challenges, treasure, and rate of advancement is good for your game. Instead of handing out items piecemeal, arrange for big rewards at longer intervals of adventuring.

To that end, design and run adventures where full-on combat will result in harm to ro even failure of a mission. I mentionned in an earlier post about running a ninja-esque game where stealth and intrigue are the ways to win. Barbarinas would still have their place in the monster-bashing arena, but they would be looked down upon by those in power -- social status would be very important in such a game. By showing the bbn player that there are other ways to be powerful besides the amount of bodies he racks up, he may reconsider his next chatacter. But don't strip him ouright of his role, because this IS the character he wants to play... your job is still to ensure fun for everyone around the table.

To a point, I agree that levels can be stronger than items... but this is true is you look at the levels and items independent of each other. If you give a soldier, already a decent hand-to-hand combatant, a gun, he suddenly becomes better. And if that gun has a laser sight, more's the better. Same thing with magic toys.

Sure, the barbarian COULD do less damage, but he can still only kill a few monsters at a time... no matter how much damage he does. Fighting golbins with 6 HP, say, while he hits for 18 damage a strike, doesn't do him a helluva lot of good. If he takes down larger monsters in a few rounds, great... so don't give him the chance. Overwhelm him with smaller "spear-carriers" and have the rogue-types be all clever and flank and aid another and disarm and whatever else they do.

Or, have a new house rule; characters can only advance to level 10 in one class, but multi-classing no longer has any restrictions. This is the same mechanic that d20 Modern uses, and I've found that players tend to be more creative with their character construction when so limited. Also, you might even consider dropping prestige classes but open up all the core classes to choose from (like the Psionic classes and those found in the Complete books).

In the end, D&D doesn't have to be about the toys; it all depends on the choices you give your players in character creation.

 

[Emirikol]

I think the major dispute here is that nobody but you seems to see him as powergaming.

Since it seems that our situations are similar, I feel it's safe to say that I think the issue is with YOU rather than the player. If everyone is having fun, there really is no issue. If YOU'RE not having fun, you need to figure out *why*.

I'm probably just trying to micromanage too much. We're all having a blast Heck, the AOW adventures don't go on forever so we'll just see how it goes.

jh