How do you 'nudge' your players away from tank mentality? (and high magic games)

[drothgery]

Can a 20th level character with no magical items survive a 10th level scenario?

Maybe, especially with such an extreme example. But maybe not, too. Odds are they'd cut through a lot of encounters like they were nothing (especially if some of the 20th-level guys were major casters) and then be stumped by something the 10th-level/normal magic guys would breeze through.

Frex, a 12th-level adventure probably can assume the PCs have some means of very rapid transportation (teleport, shadow walk, wind walk, etc.) and so can cross continents in less than a week, if not instantly. But that takes high-level spells, or magic items that duplicate them; a wiz 10/monk 10 may very well not have teleport, and even if he does, can't teleport a large party, or a 20th-level party's mounts, cohorts, and other tagalongs.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm usually the one who plays a tank, though not a Barbarian, so I'd not be too happy if tanks (e.g. Knights, Cavaliers, heavy Fighters, etc.) were nerfed in whatever game I was in. Often we run 2 characters at a time...one is usually a simple fighter of some sort, the other more complex...that way, there's a front line to defend the casters...

Lanefan

 

[Gort]

Well, if you try compensating with levels for gear you'll get incredibly offensive-focused characters. I began running into this problem with Midnight (in which magic items are illegal) - everyone has a crappy AC, so all that really matters is how many hitpoints you have, and how much you can comfortably power-attack for.

A game with no magical gear will be completely dominated by barbarian characters because of two-handed power attack and their rage.

However, if you do want to run such a game, I suggest the Conan rules - they give all characters non-magical AC increases as they level, and armour provides DR.

 

[Agent Oracle]

At what point do levels make up for lack of more powerful magical items? For example: Could a 16th level party handle a 10th level scenario with "lower powered and fewer magical items..pretend just with some potions and scrolls to hit DRx monsters?"

Can a 20th level character with no magical items survive a 10th level scenario?

Thing is, it varies heavily from class to class, build to build, and encounter to encounter.

Your average CR 10 encounter is six CR 5 trolls.

Not that tough, right? except they regain 15 hit points / combat round.

Now, the level 20 fighter gets 4 attacks / round. +20 / +15 / +10 / +5.

they can carve up one of the trolls with minimal effort...

Except.. the trolls keep getting back up.

Regardless of how much damage they do to the trolls, even if the trolls are below -10, they still regenerate, and still get back up. Unless they can build a fire or dump bottles of acid on the trolls.

If he doesn't know what trolls are, or how to defeat them, or hasn't prepared for them... the trolls will eventually wear him down, overwhelm him, and kill him.

Conversely, A 20th level wizard could just hit the trolls once, with a maximized fireball. Boom. The trolls are dead. if not dead, then severely wounded. a burning hands, acid arrow, or any of a wide plethora of other burny / melty things that the wizard has at their disposal will be effective.

Oh, and the 20th level rogue will get wiped out. He might get three sneak attacks in, but they would all be against one opponent, and then he would be rended asunder by the other troll, until the first one regenerated enough to stand up. doing 1-3d6 + 1-3 x str isn't enough for a rogue to stop a foe that regains 15 hp / round.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

At what point do levels make up for lack of more powerful magical items? For example: Could a 16th level party handle a 10th level scenario with "lower powered and fewer magical items..pretend just with some potions and scrolls to hit DRx monsters?"

Can a 20th level character with no magical items survive a 10th level scenario?

There is no simple answer. Magic items don't boost each statistic equally compared to level-based growth. Most classes don't grant any AC over level, whereas they boost BAB by up to 20 points over 20 levels. That's a huge gap. Saving throws also need that magic item boost - or some boost to fill in the gap. Damage is often heavily affected by magic weapons; you get a large boost by getting an elemental weapon with a Strength-boosting item.

 

[Emirikol]

I don't know if I buy your arguments. Other than rapid transport and a few spells that essentially duplicate "skills," levels seem a lot more powerful to me than magic 'bling.' At levels 1-20, 4 more levels of everyone in your party is way more powerful than +4 swords or +4 armor..becasue at upper levels, monsters have no trouble hitting PC's anyways (and vice versa). Take a 20th level character through any given DUNGEON scenario for example and I don't think they'd require a bunch of armor piled on the rogues and 18 wands for the wizards. Like they say in Gestalt games, "you still only get one round's worth of actions..per round"..but another attack per round and 4 more levels is more powerful than a +4 sword.

As one poster noted, the low magic game is about hp's (which even in a normal high-magic D&D game it's about anyways because higher level monsters WILL hit you).

I'd give it a difference of probably 1-4 levels now that I'm thinking of a couple of scenarios (return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, etc.).

Since our game has low-power, low-utility items such as potions and nonmagical "plussed" swords and the occasional bit of armor it should balance out right?

This is going to sound like a "DMism" but I think maybe people are just spoiled with the amount of magic they get. Really, how many magical items are 'essential to a character?' I say compared to everyone in your party having more levels that they're not really important at all.

Ok, shoot back

jh

 

[werk]

WRT low magic

See, I read the OP and I think, "the problem isn't the tank, it's the other characters."

1 Barbarian and 5 Rogues = Barbarian with an audience.

Nudge the other characters toward being effective in combat rather than artful dodgers. Artful dodgers are teh kewl, but they are quite squishy. One in a party is usually more than enough...a whole party of them is nothing but a mess.
Pat the barbar player on the back for understanding how to build for low magic adventures.

 

[Agent Oracle]

I don't know if I buy your arguments. Other than rapid transport and a few spells that essentially duplicate "skills," levels seem a lot more powerful to me than magic 'bling.'

Oh, a single extra level might seem more powerful than a single magic item, but please consider this. The difference in recommended treasure between 10th level and 11th level is 17,000 gp.

for 17,000 gp a player could purchase:

-A single +4 armor, and have close to a thousand gp left over. or...
-A +2 weapon and a +3 armor. or (17k)
-A +2 weapon, a +2 armor, a Ring of protection +1, a cloak of resistance +1

That last build bought the player at least 2 extra level worth of melee attack, reduces the effectiveness of enemy attacks by 15%, and kicked up all his saves like he was a monk for two levels. I'd call it a significant improvement all around.

So, is the 10th level fighter who has magic items stronger than the 11th level without them?

At levels 1-20, 4 more levels of everyone in your party is way more powerful than +4 swords or +4 armor..

I dunno. Why don't you try it?

play out a conflict between a party at mid-level (like 10 or 15) with no magic items Vs. a party 4 levels lower completely outfitted with enough GP worth of items to outfit the other party. No fudging, both sides built with min-maxing in mind.

Sure, the spell casters will have access to two more levels of spells, and the fighters will have two extra feats... but the lower level characters will have access to a plethora of special abilities which might just give the unequipped players a run for their money.

 

[Victim]

I'd say alot depends on buffs. If the no magic item party has plenty of time to set up, they can compensate for their lack of items with spells. Magic Vestments remove much of the need for magic armor and last along time, bull's strength can replace a strength item, etc. And the team with items would have a tough time forcing effective dispels through 4 caster levels.

I'd certainly consider the lower level team with items to be more effective at general adventuring though, since they'll be far more effective without buffs, will have access to scrolls and wands to increase their endurance, aren't especially vulnerable to dispeling, can bypass DR, and will have better countermeasures for many scenarios - like fly and see invis potions so the whole group handle those kinds of attackers.

 

[Crothian]

That last build bought the player at least 2 extra level worth of melee attack, reduces the effectiveness of enemy attacks by 15%, and kicked up all his saves like he was a monk for two levels. I'd call it a significant improvement all around.

But you are assuming the character didn't already have magical version s of those to begin with. I find it rare for a 10th level fighter to go from normal armor to +2 or higher at 11th level. Also, magical items are rarely going to be that exact for a character. It's not like once one gets 11th level they have 17k more money to invest in magic. By then they have probably found that much more magic but it could also be items that are not nearly as useful.