How Do You Plan To Interpret Hit Points, Healing Surges and Damage?

[Raven Crowking]

Hit Points were probably the last sacred cow they didn't want to kill.

I'm pretty certain that using the name, "Dungeons & Dragons", to describe whatever they're shilling, will be the last sacred cow they kill.

I do think that Fallen Seraph's description is more than adequate.

As far as hit points representing no actual damage until you are "bloodied" (or perhaps not even then), does that mean that a poisoned weapon cannot affect you until that point?

Here's another thing; how do the PCs know that their opponents are bloodied? Does this mean that blood has finally been drawn, or does this mean some theshold has been crossed that shouldn't be readily apparent? Does a monster automatically know that Bob the Adventurer is bloodied, so that he should use his special powers that work better against bloodied opponents now? Does Bob the Adventurer automatically know that a monster is bloodied? How exactly does he know this?

When I was reading Dragon Roots #1 (blatant plug), there was a transript of a 4e KotS game. The DM tried to indicate a bloodied condition while maintaining some semblence of story, and reverted to "[H]e's still standing, but he is bloody". Is everyone going to be gushing the stuff when they are bloodied? Will that make them easier to track?

I am somewhat curious about how groups intend to handle these issues as well.

RC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm pretty certain that using the name, "Dungeons & Dragons", to describe whatever they're shilling, will be the last sacred cow they kill.

RC

Hmm. There might actually be a few more sacred cows they didn't want to kill (and that I don't mind them not killing ). The name is certainly one cow they just can't kill - how do you know a game is D&D if that's not on the label?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Hmm. There might actually be a few more sacred cows they didn't want to kill (and that I don't mind them not killing ). The name is certainly one cow they just can't kill - how do you know a game is D&D if that's not on the label?

You know, I don't judge whether or not something is "D&D" on the basis of the label. "That which we call a rose/By any other name would smell as sweet" Likewise, if something smells foul, calling it a "rose" does little to help.



In any event, my questions were serious. If "bloodied" is more than a "condition to be a condition" (i.e., it is a condition that represents something in the game world), how does it interact with the logical consequences of that something in the game world? Or, if it doesn't represent anything in that game world, how/when do PCs and monsters know that condition applies?

RC

EDIT: I've recently been planning a Basic Fantasy campaign for my 9-yr-old daughter. Basic Fantasy is definitely D&D in my book, containing far more of the D&D tropes and "feel" than, say, 3e or 4e. YMMV.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I interpret hit points like this. While I'm not planning on moving to 4E, from what I understand, my basic conception of hit points and damage would work just fine with 4E approach, healing surges, et cetera (although the numbers involved would change, of course).

 

[apoptosis]

They are plot points. They are how many points you have till you are no longer an active character in the story (permanently or transiently). Meaning any description is fair game and that the description does not have to be consistent from blow to blow or round to round.

 

[RangerWickett]

For me, any 'hit' in combat will actually make some sort of contact. Just the level of injury will depend on how many relative hit points of damage it does.

I'm aware of how much ridiculous damage the human body can take and keep working, so up through the end of heroic, it's just, well, the heroes are being heroic and fighting on despite horrible gashes and broken bones and scattered burns.

1 hp of damage is just a little jarring from a weak hit. 10 hp is a hit that doesn't do any real damage, but which knocks the wind out of you. 25 hp is something you'd want to bandage, like an arrow in the leg, or a concussion, or an actual cut. 50 hp is something that should knock most people out of a fight unless they've got a hell of a lot of willpower, like a knife in the gut, or a deep gash, or a fractured bone. 100 hp is a horrible wound, like a compound fracture or other massive trauma.

When you're 10th level and have 80 hit points, it takes two or three real wounds (25 hp each) to make you want to stop fighting, but if you grit your teeth (and spend a healing surge), you can keep on going. Most likely, though, you've just got tons of small injuries - sprained wrist, broken finger, cuts on your arms and legs, spackling of acid burns, and so on.

Actually, I might implement that house rule. If you take more than your bloodied value in damage from a single attack, the wound is persistent, like a 'disease,' and it takes a while to recover from (or healing magic). Until then, your bloodied value is your max hit points.

But yes, theoretically those bad-ass, 80 hit point PCs with a dozen healing surges could, in the course of the day, receive 320 points of damage.

I think I'll just try to space out adventures so people have a week or more to recuperate from having the s*** kicked out of them.

 

[bramadan]

I on the other hand see HP as mostly morale and exhaustion.
Some of the exhaustion may be setting due to minor wounds but in principle I would consider an un-bloodied character to be just that - unbloodied (though possibly winded and tired).

Bloodied condition sets in when one is sufficiently tired and allows one real hit in. It can be just a single small bleeding wound but it is something that can potentially change the outcome of the duel (see Eric/Corvin duel in first book of Amber).

The 0 points for PCs is another solid blow that takes them out, for monsters/NPCs it can be anything between a killing blow and them breaking their will to fight and surrendering/running away (with the heavy emphasis on the latter for the minions and such).

 

[TerraDave]

As Agamon notes, this nothing new. (In all D&D) As soon as a charecter had enough hp to survive for a while meant that they could take full damage from an orcs axe over and over again, and hence that hp meant something other then taking one solid hack after another.

Of course, the DMG said this ages ago. Even Philotomy Jurament says it for his ODD game!

Healing surges fit fine with this approach. They are (litteraly) a variation on reserve points from Omega World, and when tapped out, you are really on your last legs.

But I agree that Fallen Seraph says it well:

Amount of Maximum HP: This represents how well that PC can deal with wounds inflicted upon them, and how badly a attack is inflicted upon them.

So for example a Fighter and Wizard at maximum HP are both hit for same amount of damage, however description wise the Wizard's attack was a lot more harsh. With a Minion given the 1 HP that one strike while doing the same damage was much more punishing to the Minion, ie: decapitation.

Decreasing of HP: As HP decreases this shows the the PC/Monster through a combination of wounds, pain, stress, fatigue, and other circumstances is slowly winding themselves down to suffering a incapacitating hit. Essentially their fighting capacity begins to deplete.

Healing Surges: A Healing Surge represents the PC/Monster being able to regain some composure and ignore some of the pain they have suffered and regain some of their fighting capacity. This is why things such as a Warlord's Healing Abilities can work, since he is helping the PC regain some of his fighting capacity, not actually fixing physical wounds.

As Healing Surges decrease however, this shows that it takes more and more effort to work past the various wounds, fatigue and other things piled against the PC to fight/work affectively. Thus when a PC reaches 0 Healing Surges they are at the end of their tether and cannot reach beyond their limitations.

In many regards Healing Surges is a better representation of actual physical health, because the more it decreases the more physically unable the PC is to fight affectively.

Describing This All: Essentially all together, this means that PCs with less Maximum HP when hit suffer worse wounds and are debilitated more by it. Though the actual physical stress these wounds have on the body truly show when Healing Surges begin to run out and wounds and other things pile up.

Thus a fighter with 0 Healing Surges but Maximum HP will look worse then a Wizard with full Healing Surges and almost no HP.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Thank you very much for the responses so far everyone. There are quite a few issues here that I suppose I'll try and work out when I receive the books.

Perhaps my biggest issue is with the "extended rest"... action/ability/power? The fact that this restores Healing Surges seems way over the top - to the point that this alone will annoy the hell out of my group. From Death's door to full health with nothing more than a lie down seems so ridiculous, I'm wondering whether I have it right. Surely not? Would it not make more sense that rest got you back a number of healing surges relative to your condition and/or constitution? In other words, the sicker your character is, the less the number of healing surges restored.

And so now, when discussing someone's hardiness for battle, we have a curious amalgam of Fortitude, Hit Points, Constitution and Healing Surges. Does this actually equate to easier adjudication and gameflow or more complexity?

In strictest terms, a character appears to be in one of 4 states of health: Unbloodied, Bloodied, Dying or Dead. All this is relative to "Hit Points" alone with Healing Surges acting as a buffer, Fortitude acting as a defence and Constitution having an impact on all of the above to a lesser or greater extent. However, it would appear that the number of healing surges a character has is more reflective of their hardiness, forming a curious relationship with their hit point total. This seems to make it quite difficult for the DM to describe what has happened in game, perhaps better just saying you take x amount of hit points to the player out of game and leaving any description or embellishment up to the player.

Also, as has been mentioned, anomalies happen for things such as being poisoned but unbloodied, monsters such as undead whose "hit points" would appear to represent something slightly different to other creatures, as well as the fact that I have no idea whether there is a coup de grace action - something which I think is pivotal.

All in all, I suppose I have some concerns and thus eagerly look to getting the books to see what has been presented. Thank you for the help thus far.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[TerraDave]

RE: Range of Defensive Statistics and Damage Variables.

In 1E: you had hp (which can go negative), a whole bunch of save types, a system shock roll, and all kinds of effects that made the saves and system shock important. Many ways for a high hitpoint guy to die or have long term harm just like that.

In 2E: As above, plus a massive damage threshold.

In 3E: Still hp and negative hp (but these are tied to multiple conditions), just one fortitude save, still a massive damage threshold, and less save or die (though still plenty) but the novelty of ability damage (ie six more variables), which could heal like hp, but differently.

In 4E you have fortitude, healing surges, and hp (which can be negative, with one condition). You have some conditions that do non-hp stuff, but hp is really your dominant measure of how much more damage can be taken in a combat. You have some things that key off bloody, though some things like that have been in the game since 1E (though not nearly as systemically).

Overall, I dont know that it is that much more complicated...

...one difference is that "dropped by one blow" is a lot less likely to happen, but "I have reached my limits, no exortations or healing will help" know is...but that is a different discusion.

RE: One night and you are all better

I agree that this is the real sticking point. Its a nod to convience and genre conventions, it is not that different then practice in past editions (where enough curing magic would be around to restore full hp each day), but ya, it does seem strange that after a day of getting poisened, burned, bludgeoned, and knocked unconcious and near death a few times, you get up and feel fine after a short nights rest.

Maybe it is so easy it as to be worth the incredulity. But if I was going to house rule something, or cover something up with some narrative boiler place, it would be this bit.