How do you think creating NPC's will be handled

[Wormwood]

I'd like to see a set of baselines per level, with adjustments applicable for desiered role (if any).

Simple, easy and utterly unlike the drudgework of 3e.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Star Wars Saga is definetly a step in the right direction. However I'm hoping that 4e is even faster with the NPC creation times. There is a lot more options with a fantasy game espically D&D.

I want something fast and but still gives me complex npc. Spycraft 2.0 is the standard with their system. I'm not saying they need to copy SC 2 over to D&D, but something with that kind of simplicity is fine.

SWSE was quick for skills, but suffered in terms of the amount of time it took to choose talents and feats still (which are typically more time consuming than skills most of the time in D&D IMX, since skills basically comes down to max out the number of skills based on class, intelligence and race. For multi-classed characters it was more of a hassle, but I rarely ended up with multiclass NPCs).

Spycraft 2.0 has the best principle IMO, where you can create effectively 'template NPCs' (n.b. not 3e template terminology), which you can then use at any level by plugging in appropriate numbers.

 

[jasin]

The biggest barrier in 3e is skill points, which seem to be gone in 4e (replaced with Saga-style "trained" or "untrained" skills and level-based bonuses).

It's easy enough to reduce 3E skills to "trained"/"untrained" (and "cross-class trained") for single class characters. An elf 10th-level rogue with Int 14 has 10 skills. "Untrained" is +0, "trained" is +13, "cross-class trained" is +6. A human 3rd-level cleric with Int 10 has 3 skills, "trained" +6, "untrained" +0, "cross-class trained" +3.

It does gets a bit more complicated for the likes of wizards who change Int, and a lot more complicated for multiclassed characters.

You'll still have to pick feats and talents, but there's less number crunching involved.

I think that depends on the particular classes under comparison. Making a 3E 20th-level barbarian (pick your 7 feats, good to go!) seems simpler than making a Saga 20th-level Jedi (pick 7 feats, 10 Jedi feats and 10 talents). Making a 20th-level swordsage is way more complex than either, because even though there's some 20-odd powers to pick and another few to just note down, there are non-obvious requirements, the ability to trade in powers for new ones (and possibly break requirements for something else)...

The lack of Ability score-affecting magic items should also be handy in reducing the calculations you have to make.

Very true. Magic items, and particularly stat enhancers are IMO the most fiddly bit when trying to make high level characters quickly. It can be difficult to remain aware of what you need, want and can afford without adjusting the numbers multiple times as you add and remove items.

With practice, you can learn to do it relatively quickly, but particularly for a newbie, it can be rather overwhelming to quickly pick, say, 100,000 gp worth of items that don't leave him lacking in some crucial area.

 

[jasin]

As long as an NPC does not have to have a large sum of hp/levels in order to be really good at certain skills I will be happy.

Look at dudes like Mozart, Jimi Hendrix or Allan Holdsworth, they would have a sick amount of Ranks in Perform (Instrument), but would not have more than a few hp.

Is this truly the most important character type a fantasy action RPG needs to model?

 

[Plane Sailing]

As long as an NPC does not have to have a large sum of hp/levels in order to be really good at certain skills I will be happy.

Look at dudes like Mozart, Jimi Hendrix or Allan Holdsworth, they would have a sick amount of Ranks in Perform (Instrument), but would not have more than a few hp.

We may well find that they differentiate between a number of different kinds of NPC

There might be 'non-encounter NPCs' where it just says "give them the overall bonus you want them to have" and 'encounter NPCs' where there is some more detail about setting them up, but less detail than a PC would warrant.

 

[Steely Dan]

Is this truly the most important character type a fantasy action RPG needs to model?

I don't know – did someone say that…?

 

[Steely Dan]

We may well find that they differentiate between a number of different kinds of NPC

There might be 'non-encounter NPCs' where it just says "give them the overall bonus you want them to have" and 'encounter NPCs' where there is some more detail about setting them up, but less detail than a PC would warrant.

Exactly.

The master blacksmith/sage etc is just really good at his thing without having to follow the rules for PC Skills.

 

[Walking Dad]

You're not the boss of me, now!

…And you're not so big…

Ok, Malcom, sorry

 

[Steely Dan]

Ok, Malcom, sorry

Cool, you got the reference!

 

[Gundark]

SWSE was quick for skills, but suffered in terms of the amount of time it took to choose talents and feats still (which are typically more time consuming than skills most of the time in D&D IMX, since skills basically comes down to max out the number of skills based on class, intelligence and race. For multi-classed characters it was more of a hassle, but I rarely ended up with multiclass NPCs).

This is true, while skills are pretty darn quick, I'm still hunting up feats and talents cause I got "slots" left. Multiclass characters were defineetly more of a chore.

After thinking about it some more I suspect that NPC creation will look similiar to the discussion that we're having in the "take what you want, leave the rest" thread on monsters.

Like some have mentioned, you don't need to pick every single 1st level spell/power. I imagine it'll be taking what you think works, and not bothering with the rest. The villain classes from Iron Heroes was a huge step in the right direction. All that would be needed would be some fine tuning of that system.