D&D 5E (2024) NPCs, and the poverty of the core books

[Chaltab]

Honestly my favorite 'PC Wizard' statblock is the Legendary Archmage from Monster Manual Expanded 3. I think it's a good compromise between usability (It has a post-MPMM style spell list) and not having completely arbitrary At-Will powers.

 

[Lanefan]

In the modern game party healing often outpaces those save effects, especially with the 0 floor on most damage. The Fighter has 2 hps left and the Dragon breathes fire does 40 damage and he loses 2 hit points. The Cleric casts a 3rd level cure wounds and he is healed 30 hps.

To me, the bolded is a big concern. Those extra 38 points should count for something, even if only that it takes 37 points of curing to get that Fighter from 1 to 2 hit points (after which cures work as normal) after the first cure gets him from 0 to 1.

 

[ECMO3]

To me, the bolded is a big concern. Those extra 38 points should count for something, even if only that it takes 37 points of curing to get that Fighter from 1 to 2 hit points (after which cures work as normal) after the first cure gets him from 0 to 1.

It does not really bother me, but it does ensure the party can usually outrun the bad guys.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes you can, especially because of the floor at 0 hps. Almost all parties with a healer will ouspec enemy damage with the new healing spells.

For example, a Young Red Dragon's Breath does 56 damage on a failed save or 28 damage on a made save or failed save with resistance and 14 damage on a made save with resistance (about half of PCs are probably going to be resistant) and he is rarely going to be able to do that more than twice in a combat.

Your games with their rings of resistance on every finger are not the norm. Unless they've had time to prep, it's unlikely that half the party will just happen to be resistant to fire.

A 5th level Cleric can heal ~30 damage to a single ally twice with their 3rd level slots, ~20 3 times with their second level slots and ~12 with their 1st level slots four times. That is around 170 points of healing and it is not counting Divine Spark, Subclass abilities, potions (which are now a bonus action) or any other PCs helping out at all and it also is before we consider the Dragon Breath can't take anyone below 0. And this would be a High Difficulty fight.

Wow. That sounds mind numbingly dull. Why on Earth would anyone want to play a healbot and not someone who does something? Get AI to play a healbot. AI can probably can do that much.

As an alternative the Cleric can use their 3rd level slots to heal 9 damage to everyone in the party as a bonus action and that wizard who is at 0hps gets a whole 9 hps healing from it, while the Wizard at 0 caught in Dragon Breath takes no damage at all.

As an alternative, the player can play a cleric of his god and do things rather than just be a healbot.

 

[Maxperson]

1. Because he's angry

2. No, but this one gets it.

3. Your cleric doesn't get one because your cleric is a cleric, you already have enough features.

I don't see a single thing wrong in your second paragraph, of course I'll do those things--Why does this guy's accurate sword strike is mechanized as a higher To-Hit roll while the other guy's accurate sword strike is mechanized as a bonus damage when hitting someone with a condition? Because I want to differentiate their mechanical and encounter/combat role.

This guy is tough and angry and has high HP but damages himself with each attack, this guy is tough and angry and has has regenerating Temp HP at each round, this guy is tough and angry and has resistance+mindless This is what I can do as a DM, this is what many designers do when writing up foes, the in-fiction explanatuon doesn't have to lead to the same mechanical expression.

Yeah. That would drive me away from the game.

This tough angry human isn't a human, he's an orc. This other tough angry human isn't a human, he's a dwarf. This third tough angry human isn't a human, he's a goliath.

I want humans to be consistently human. If I want one to be tough, he'll be a barbarian or fighter, with feats and abilities built in that belong to those classes.

 

[ECMO3]

Your games with their rings of resistance on every finger are not the norm. Unless they've had time to prep, it's unlikely that half the party will just happen to be resistant to fire.

Almost all Rangers, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers and Artificers have Absorb Elements. Like Shield and Healing Word it is pretty much a must get spell if it is on your list. Then add the Tieflings, Red Dragonborn, Arcane Tricksters, Eldritch Knights, anyone who got AE off list and anyone who managed to get some other fire resistant consumable magic, especially if they knew they were facing a Dragon, and I think you are up to about half the party give or take.

I have been in parties where everyone was resistant to fire, but I think about half is the norm in tier 2.

Wow. That sounds mind numbingly dull. Why on Earth would anyone want to play a healbot and not someone who does something? Get AI to play a healbot. AI can probably can do that much.

That is not a healbot build. That is a basic Cleric with no subclass and it is two of their prepared spells and none of his channel divinity (which can also be used to heal). A healbot like a Devotion Cleric is going to do more healing than that.

It is also the Cleric alone, other party members often have healing, both spells and non-spell abilities and then there are potions of healing, which are a bonus action.

.

 

[Maxperson]

Almost all Rangers, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers and Artificers have absorb elements. Pretty much anyone who has access to that spell gets it. That is about a third of the party right there. Then add the Tieflings, Red Dragonborn, anyone who gets it off list and anyone who managed to get some magic, especially if they knew they were facing a Dragon, and I think you are up to about half the party.

I have been in parties where everyone was resistant to fire, but I think about half is the norm.

There are other good spells and slots are at a premium. That spell isn't cast as often as you think. That may be how your group does it, but your group isn't the gold standard of how groups around the world play.

That is not a healbot build. That is a basic Cleric with no subclass and it is two prepared spells.

In your example you used literally every spell slot to cast healing spells. That's a healbot. You don't get to have it both ways. Either they are using their slots for things other than healing, in which case you are wrong about the cleric having 170 points of healing for the fight, or he is are using all of his slots for healing and is a healbot.

They don't get to use all of their slots to heal that breath weapon damage, outpacing damage like you are arguing AND also use slots on other things.

 

[ECMO3]

There are other good spells and slots are at a premium. That spell isn't cast as often as you think. That may be how your group does it, but your group isn't the gold standard of how groups around the world play.

It is not cast that often, but it is universally prepared if you have access to it and it is cast anytime one of those players with it prepared is hit with Dragon Breath and has a slot available.

If a bad guy Wizard hits you with Acid spray for 8 damage you probably are not going to cast it. If a Black Dragon hits you for 60 Acid damage you are.

In your example you used literally every spell slot to cast healing spells. That's a healbot.

That is the amount of healing he has. The claim I responded to is "you can't outheal incoming damage without specving for it"

You absolutely can, the example I gave is a not a cleric speced for healing.

They don't get to use all of their slots to heal that breath weapon damage, outpacing damage like you are arguing AND also use slots on other things.

I never said they would use all their slots to heal breath weapon damage, they would not need to anyway. All I was saying is as a non-healbot build they have plenty of ability to do it and stay ahead of the dragon .... and that is one PC in the party!

 

[Maxperson]

It is not cast that often, but it is universally prepared if you have access to it and it is cast anytime one of those players with it prepared is hit with Dragon Breath and has a slot available.

It's not at all universally prepared. There are too many good spells and too few prepared spells you can pick for that to be true.

That is the amount of healing he has. The claim I responded to is "you can't outheal incoming damage without specving for it"

You absolutely can, the example I gave is a not a cleric speced for healing.

It kinda is. If you are using everything you have just to heal, you are a healbot which means you are specced for healing. You may not be fully optimized for it, but only using healing spells is speccing as a healbot. That's what you are specialized in.

 

[ECMO3]

It's not at all universally prepared. There are too many good spells and too few prepared spells you can pick for that to be true.

No there are not very many better 1st level spells, and in the 2024 rules prepared spells are not nearly as much of a premium, especially since your high level slots are what is most limited and this is a 1st level spell.

You say it is not half the party, so add together all the Tieflings, all the Red Dragonborn, then all the Sorcerers, Druids, Wizards, Artificers, Rogues (AT) and Fighters (EK) who did prepare Absorb Elements. then add all the Draconic Sorcerers and all the Bear Totem Barbarians. Then add all the people who do have a ring of fire resistance or anyone that picked up or crafted a potion to give them fire resistance because they knew they would be facing a dragon. Then finally add any that might have got it from some other spell they cast ahead of time or in the beginning of combat.

Add all those together. What percentage of the party do you think that is? I said it is about half and in a combat with a Dragon in teir 2 I think that is pretty accurate.

It kinda is. If you are using everything you have just to heal, you are a healbot which means you are specced for healing.

No. You talked about how precious prepared spells are above. Cure Wounds is ONE spell prepared. Mass Healing Word (which I only tacked on at the end) is ONE spell prepared spell.

He has 7 more spells to prepare at 5th level, and this is RAW a high difficulty encounter for a 5th level party of 4.

Now if you are saying you would rather not keep healing to stay ahead of the Dragon that is fine, but it is fundamentally different than saying you can't.

I also can't stress enough that I am talking about 1PC, not a party.