D&D 5E How do you think "Epic" play will work (if at all)?

[Mercurius]

What the title says. It looks like the DMG doesn't have a section on "epic" play (level 20 and beyond), although there was the mysterious "Rewards at 20th Level" which disappeared.

I'm guessing that possibly in 2016 or 2017 we'll see an "epic wave" of material - Deities & Demigods (and Demon Lords), an Epic handbook or DMG 2. Or maybe I'm totally wrong, I don't know.

But it seems like an easy modular option to throw in there, or a variety of options - whether something like Pathfinder's Mythic Paths, 4E's Epic Destinies, etc.

Any thoughts?

 

[Mouseferatu]

If there's any sort of epic option for 5E, I hope it doesn't too closely resemble anything that's come before--but if it has to, I'd prefer Paizo's Mythic Paths over anything else.

What I do not want to see is the same stuff with higher numbers. Epic play should be different than non-epic; more options, more types of story, more types of play. It shouldn't just be the core game turned up to 11.

 

[prosfilaes]

I hope they don't spend too much time on it. The Epic Level Handbook failed on many levels, and didn't really see support from WotC or 3rd parties. It's hard to do right. Then again, maybe 4E's Epic Destinies did it better; certainly one of ELH's faults was just doing the same thing with bigger numbers. Either way, probably something I'm not looking forward to.

 

[The Myopic Sniper]

I don't really see the need for an Epic Level Handbook. It is one of those things that a lot of folks might like to flip through, but I imagine the number of campaigns that will make make it past 20th level in 5e is less than 1%. If it was an appendix in some sort of Deities & Demigods or an Unearthed Arcana thing, it might be worthwhile, even if it were just five or six pages of guidelines.

 

[Evenglare]

I'll echo what I said in the other post.

Why not make level 20 just a bit more powerful and scale everything to that?

... ... ... ...but this one goes to 11.

 

[Stalker0]

To me, 20th level is already pretty darn epic.

I could see something where they took off the ability cap a bit, or gave you more feats. But honestly a 20th level game is already subject to a lot of DM fiat. The players at that point normally have special allies, divine favors, weird magic items....so many things not defined in the rules.

If anything an epic handbook should be mostly a narrative book...a book designed to help DMs master high level player and to inspire them on what epic adventures can look like. But at some point, every model is going to break if you keep pushing it. 20 levels is pretty good...why add more?

 

[Falling Icicle]

I think it would be best if epic play worked kind of like e6. By that I mean that characters wouldn't gain any levels after 20 but could gain additional skills, feats, etc. over time, growing more versatile and well rounded without growing too much in power.

 

[Mercurius]

I think it would be best if epic play worked kind of like e6. By that I mean that characters wouldn't gain any levels after 20 but could gain additional skills, feats, etc. over time, growing more versatile and well rounded without growing too much in power.

This is kind of what I had in mind, although levels would still be useful as to way to determine when those extra feats and such are granted.

As or "why bother with levels beyond 20th," in a way the question doesn't make sense to me, because why not? It is D&D, it is supposed to be fun, and frankly it doesn't make sense that a character's development maxs out with no further advancement possible. Of course we could argue that development naturally slows, and changes smaller and smaller. Anyhow, I see epic/mythic play as a kind of unfilled potential in D&D that has never really been done well. Maybe 5E can pull it off.

I personally see two alternate paths (aside from just maxed out at 20th):

One, something truly epic/mythic, where while normal advancement stops, the character develops truly epic characteristics on the way to quasi-immortality - something akin to super powers. So 21-30 would be epic/mythic, and 31+ would be immortal (or quasi-immortal).

Two, something more incremental, where advancement slows but still occurs.

Now the thing is, the curve of advancement in 5E is already much slower than in previous editions, mainly due to bounded accuracy. So the second option might not need to be all that different than earlier levels, except perhaps only involving larger XP requirements. There could also be a time requirement, like every level after 20th requires at least a year of in-game time.

 

[prosfilaes]

As or "why bother with levels beyond 20th," in a way the question doesn't make sense to me, because why not?

Because WotC is spending the time and money making a book where many of its customers are asking "why?"? It's not an absolute "not", but it is a reason to stop and think about it.

 

[Mercurius]

Because WotC is spending the time and money making a book where many of its customers are asking "why?"? It's not an absolute "not", but it is a reason to stop and think about it.

Fair enough - that's a good reason. As long as it isn't either because "I don't like it" or "it has never worked well in the past." Those are not good reasons, imo.

In a way, because 5E is less "gonzo" than the last couple editions, epic play might be a nice optional capstone. Another way to do it would be to have "mythic talents" starting after about 10th level that can be taken in addition to or instead of ability score increases or feats. Then after 20th level, character gains or advances a mythic talent once per level - and that's all that happens (except for, perhaps a few extra HP per level). That sort of thing wouldn't require a whole book of resources, just maybe a 40-50 section in a hardcover supplement.