How do you use knowledge skills?

Asmor said:
Uhh... It sounds like you may have been being facetious, but just in case...

Knowledge (Dungeoneering), (History) or (Local) would apply to ruins, depending on the DM and situation.

Knowledge (Arcana) is the skill for knowledge of magic.

And every monster type is linked to a particular knowledge skill... Animals are (Nature), Undead are (Religion) and Aberrations are (Dungeoneering), for example.
Only partly. "I go to every library we come across and read up on every beastiary they have." Knowledge: Monsters, not 15 different skills. (Assuming that 'beastiaries' are at least sometimes written by Adventurers.)
 

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DM_Jeff said:
The only thing I don't appreciate is the PC that think he's braniac and tries to eek knowledge out of every conceivable DM phrase to try and gleen addition info.

DM: "You approach a door..."
PC: "Knowledge: Archecture & Engineering?!"
DM: rolls eyes
Alternately:

DM: "Okay, what did you get?"
PC: *rolls* "Ooo, natural 20! That's 36!"
DM: "Your knowledge of doors ancient and modern tells you that from this angle and distance, a door would look exactly like that. Regarding age, make and composition, from what you can tell the door fits in with its environment perfectly. There is nothing unusual about the door in any way -- or perhaps someone has expended a lot of resources to make you think so!"
PC: "Aw man, wasted my 20."

Cheers, -- N
 

From my house rules...

Knowledge checks can be rerolled if your character does some research. Use a source of information, such as a library, that grants a bonus to the knowledge check that you want to make. You can then make a new knowledge check afterward. Research normally take four hours of time to answer a question. However, for every five points you make your Knowledge check, the time it took is halved (5-9 = two hours, 10-14 = one hour, 15-19 = 30 minutes, 20-24 = 15 minutes, etc.) If you don't have four hours to make your Knowledge check, you can choose to increase the Knowledge DC by 5 to reduce the time to two hours, or by ten to reduce the time to one hour. And so on. (The amount of time it takes to make a Gather Information check works the same way as the time it takes to research a Knowledge check instead of taking 1d4+1 hours.)

Knowledge ([monster type]): the DC to identify a monster with the relevant Knowledge skill (nature, planar, dungeoneering, etc.) is 10 + its CR. You recall a fact about the monster if you make it, and additional facts for every five points you make the roll. If you are successful, you can continue making knowledge checks each round afterwards to recall additional facts about the creature until you fail. Facts will come in the order of: monster name, type (& subtypes), and notable attack; followed by most notable defense and most notable vulnerability; followed by its next notable attack, defense, and vulnerability, and so on. Failing the knowledge check by four only reveals the monster's type and does not allow rerolling.

Knowledge (religion): divine spellcasters receive a +5 bonus to knowledge checks about their god and religion.
 
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Ed_Laprade said:
Only partly. "I go to every library we come across and read up on every beastiary they have." Knowledge: Monsters, not 15 different skills. (Assuming that 'beastiaries' are at least sometimes written by Adventurers.)
I guess, you added the bracketed part because you realized most 'monster' types wouldn't be in included in any kind of bestiary?

I'd say you might find animals, vermin, magical beasts, some dragons, some aberrations (non-humanoid, non-intelligent) and maybe oozes in a bestiary, but not anything else.

Some of the monster types are assigned to odd knowledge skills, though. E.g. I don't really understand why you have to use knowledge (dungeoneering) to identify aberrations.

There's also nothing to prevent a DM from using/inventing a different categorization. I could imagine a set of climate/terrain based knowledge skills, for example.

Then there's official knowledge skill categories that lump together different monster kinds based on a certain qualifier, like knowledge (psionics) which allows you to identify any kind of psionic creatures.

LonePaladin said:
One alteration I made to the Knowledge DCs for creatures is removing the Hit-Die basis; why should a creature with more hit points be harder to identify? Instead, I base the DC on the Challenge Rating (such as that is)
That's actually an official rule change as of MM4. Both it and MM5 (page 7, Lore) state that the Knowledge DCs should be (generally) based on CR.
 

Jhaelen said:
I guess, you added the bracketed part because you realized most 'monster' types wouldn't be in included in any kind of bestiary?

I'd say you might find animals, vermin, magical beasts, some dragons, some aberrations (non-humanoid, non-intelligent) and maybe oozes in a bestiary, but not anything else.

Some of the monster types are assigned to odd knowledge skills, though. E.g. I don't really understand why you have to use knowledge (dungeoneering) to identify aberrations.

There's also nothing to prevent a DM from using/inventing a different categorization. I could imagine a set of climate/terrain based knowledge skills, for example.

Then there's official knowledge skill categories that lump together different monster kinds based on a certain qualifier, like knowledge (psionics) which allows you to identify any kind of psionic creatures.

That's actually an official rule change as of MM4. Both it and MM5 (page 7, Lore) state that the Knowledge DCs should be (generally) based on CR.
Yep, I figured that demons, devils, undead, and others wouldn't be in them unless Adventurers wrote them. As for others, midevil beastiaries had some pretty weird stuff in them! I just find it easier to have a single knowledge skill. Saves time and skill points.
 

Our groups in general use knowledge skills per the book. In a campaign I run (for kids 7-12) I do most of the character gen, so I've got a pretty broad distribution of KSs, largely stereotypically by profession. Worst issue is overlap between the Ranger, Druid, and Cleric (of the main elf god...). Also some overlap between the MU/Thief and the Hexblade in arcana & spellcraft.

In our other longer-running campaign (not kids-safe...) we're a bit less regular with the knowledge skills. Our GM is not much of a rules-lawyer (two of us players do a lot of the adjudicating for grapples & counterspells & such-like...). Too many of us have also spent too much time playing Champions and d6 Star Wars, and are used to KS:<make-it-up>, and/or <base skill> with specialty levels in <narrow skill area>. So... the GM will periodically request checks in skills that aren't defined in 3.5e (KS: Dragon Lore ? nope - it's KS: arcane now...), or throw in bonuses (through magic items, or special experience, or summat) to non-existant specialties. My half-dragon character has a... +9 (? gotta check the sheet) specifically for dragon lore - communion with a Great Wyrm gold, temporary ownership (for about 3 levels - just long enough to burn an exotic weapon prof feat...) of an artifact-level dragon slaying intelligent bastard sword - reading the Draco Mystere (after recovering it through diplomacy (and theft..) from a spectre (?) kobold arch-mage's lair). Oh - seduction is another one that keeps getting called for specifically, and which some folks have specific bonuses to.

Overall the KS's seem to balance OK. The performs, crafts and professions, OTOH are very very overlooked. Major exceptions are for crafting of magic items, by bards, or by artificers. I might consider bonus points (as someone mentioned above - 1-3 per level) specifically for those...
 

Voadam said:
How do you use knowledge skills in your game?



How do you actually implement this skill in your games?
Is the skill a bonus that aids the player's gaps in knowledge on the subjects?
Is the existence of the skill a limit for characters that don't invest in it?

Do you have a problem with a player playing a knowledgeable character with no knowledge skill points (such as a tiefling fighter who knows the politics of hell and the DR type vulnerabilities among the hierarchy of devils)?

I generally eyeball a character's concept and history, in-game experiences and general investment of skill points/mechanical end number to see if I impart to the player information I think his character would know that he doesn't. The mechanics at the end are the least important part for me. I often don't even roll and just go with my gut on whether the information seems appropriate for the character or not. Determining DCs and then rolling just adds in randomness after I have to make a primary judgment on appropriateness of the information anyway.

...

I also find monster info is a tough call on what is appropriate "useful information".

IMC the Knowledge skills are essentially an in-character option to get "hints" during the game. They are usually very useful skills, because they are used very often and because they can help the characters both figuring out the plot and preparing themselves for certain encounters.

There are typically 2 uses of these skills: either you roll generically about a subject (the higher you roll, the more info you get), or you roll against a specific question to see if you know the answer.

I enforce what I believe was the originally intended way that these skills should work: as a check to see if the knowledge of (or answer to) something is already in the character's mind. As such, I do not allow to take 10 or take 20, and I allow retries on the same topic only after a significant amount of time (usually, but not always, after the ranks in that Knowledge have increased). I understand why some DMs like the "recall/memory" idea (with which take 10 make sense), but I do not use it, just as I do not require to recall knowledge of spells, feats etc.

I allow players to define their own new Knowledge skills. I do not mind the existence of overlapping knowledges. There are some unavoidable overlaps anyway (e.g. if the subject is a Holy War of the past, both KN(Religion) and KN(History) can help), so for me even if someone has KN(Creatures) and another has KN(Dragons), that's fine for me (although it makes little sense for the same PC to have both). The narrower the skill, the easier to know something: to know the habits of a certain dragon type might have DC 20 in KN(Dragons) and DC 30 in KN(Creatures).

Overall anyway I'm not very fond of using Knowledge to reveal strengths/weaknesses of monsters in combat, so while I allow it of course, I won't bother too much if someone knows something from the book... anyway both the skill and the book may be wrong :D

One last nitpick: I disagree that Architecture and Engineering would be a Knowledge. For practical questions like "how much weight does this bridge hold?", I think Profession is a much more appropriate skill. For theoretical questions, KN is ok but in case of Architecture it is almost always useless.
 

Li Shenron said:
(e.g. if the subject is a Holy War of the past, both KN(Religion) and KN(History) can help)

Of course, those could give very different answers...

With a Knowledge (History) check, you might know some of the important battles or how various nations reacted to the war.

With a Knowledge (Religion) check, you'd know more about why the war took place, what the sides thought, etc, and have significantly less detail about the specifics of the fighting.

Think of it in our world... I wouldn't expect a random priest to have much knowledge of the battles that took place during the crusades.
 
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Its only been in the current AoW campaign that my players have bothered with knowledge skills really. They tend to use them to find potential weaknesses and strengths of monsters they encounter.
 

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