How does a dragon grapple?

[BartD]

... OR he could do a "damage your opponent" twice (grapple check 18, then 13), doing claw damage.

I don't think it can use its claw (or any natural weapon) for damage using "damage your opponent". As I read it, "attack your opponent" deals "real" damage (weapon, natural weapon) while "damage your opponent" deals grappling damage. Except for armor spikes, maybe they should simply be simple weapons which need not be drawn and cannot be disarmed.

Leopards can't Rend (they don't have the Rend ability), but they can Rake...

Yes, I wrote the wrong thing. But can a leopard rake a human (same size)?

That directly contradicts the Monster Manual stating "Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling".

It sure sounds like a contradiction. How do you play it?

 

[Sektat]

> I don't think it can use its claw (or any natural weapon) for
> damage using "damage your opponent".

This comes from the improved grap rules
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab

"each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold"

Since the claw established the hold, you deal claw damage after the monsters successful grapple check (which is in effect the "damage your opponent" option).

Without this feat, you only deal damage according your size (+STR mod)

 

[Hypersmurf]

But can a leopard rake a human (same size)?

Sure - Rake is entirely separate from Improved Grab. The Improved Grab restriction doesn't apply to a totally separate ability.

It sure sounds like a contradiction. How do you play it?

By the rules, which are found in the Monster Manual.

As opposed to RotG, which in attempting to explain the rules, gets it wrong.

-Hyp.

 

[BartD]

By the rules, which are found in the Monster Manual.

As opposed to RotG, which in attempting to explain the rules, gets it wrong.

I think you're right about what rules are official.

I may just have realized something: Armor spikes work as a weapon ("You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack.") It says "attack" not "check" so to use the spikes, one must use the "Attack Your Opponent" option, right? ...and as a consequence, armor spikes cannot be used while pinning, right?
Spikes being useable while pinning has been bothering me so I hope my "new" reading is correct?

 

[zeroorez]

> That directly contradicts the Monster Manual stating
> "Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling".

Yes. That's true. So you either have to use the "more official rule" (==> MM) or the "most recent rule" (==> WotC's document about grapple).
Since I consider the most recent rule way more logical (no argument, I know), we use this rule. Of course it's a disadvantage for the PC's so I suppose other groups will stick to the MM.

rules of the game all about grapple
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling. In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon (see the section on damaging your opponent for details).


note that it said you can use all you natural weapons but it is implying you can select one of them this is helped with the " you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon"
see if you could use all of the natural attacks at the same time then it whould not be better to make an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent

 

[eamon]

The rules of the game article should have used the word "Any" with respect the natural weapons available during a grapple to avoid all confusion. You can use em all, but only one in any round since you can only use a natural weapon once in a round. Any creature that's a worthwhile grappler will have Improved Grab and such a creature can use the damage an opponent grapple action to deal natural weapon damage multiple times.

Ozyrrandion, a medium dragon without Improved Grab, is better off not grappling unless he has no other choice. Of course, if you upgrade him by an age category and have a large dragon (with +4 size, more strength, and a high bab) then grappling is less bad, but even then, a dragon probably only would use grapple in very specific circumstances (if, say, it's confronted with dangerous archers and a two-handed weapon wielding fighter, perhaps?) since it's not necessarily easy to escape a grapple when he needs to.