How does a dragon grapple?

[BartD]

So to inflict natural-weapon-damage, Ozzy must use the rules for "Attack Your Opponent". Reading the rule (see below), he can clearly only use one of his natural weapons (bite most likely). But can he use it once or three times?
Hypersmurf, do you have a reference for only allowing one bite attack?

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, a natural weapon, or a light weapon against a creature you’re grappling. You take a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
A creature can attack with only one of its natural weapons on its turn while grappling, unless it has a special ability that allows it to do otherwise or its description provides an exception. This attack is usually made with the creature’s primary natural weapon

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hypersmurf, do you have a reference for only allowing one bite attack?

Sure:

Grappling: If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

But:

Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

So if you're using natural weapons, your base attack bonus does not allow you multiple attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

To aid in clarification of the rule on spellcasting (and UMD) while grappling the Rules Compendium added the following to the end of the two entries.

"but it takes the normal time to activate."

"but it takes its normal casting time to cast."

 

[Infiniti2000]

• Ozzy gets 3 grapple checks per round (+14/+9/+4) because its BAB is +11 and its strength is 17.

Yep.

Actually, I would most likely say "nope" since you called Ozzy a 'serious' dragon. IMO, a serious dragon has to be big, and therefore you forgot the size bonus in the above grapple checks. (But, you got the number of grapple checks correct, unless Ozzy could somehow be hasted.) So, how big is Ozzy? I'm not familiar with RHoD.

 

[darthkilmor]

Couldn't the dragon use its breathe weapon while grappled ? The grappler won't have a dex bonus.

You could move the grapple by flying upward and upward. Even if the PC ends up killing the dragon he'll end up taking a bunch of falling damage, and probably will start to reconsider what he's doing.

Dragons have escape artist as a class skill, and a medium dragon has what, around 10 HD? 13 ranks in Escape Artist is...ok, not as good as the initial +14 standard grapple check. Just tossing it out there in case he's got more than 11 HD.

Sorry I don't know anything about this particular dragon, does it have any sorc casting? Any 1st lvl spells that increase touch AC? I guess Shield and Mage Armor don't, but do against incorporeal touch attacks? Huh never quite realized that one. Anyway, I'm sure there's some other spell out there right?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Sure:

Grappling: If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

But:

Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

So if you're using natural weapons, your base attack bonus does not allow you multiple attacks.

-Hyp.

So if the grappler is attacking with his bare hands (bear hands?), does that count as a natural weapon and thus disallow the barbarian from making iterative grapple attacks too?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Couldn't the dragon use its breathe weapon while grappled ? The grappler won't have a dex bonus.

A grappler loses his Dex bonus to AC, not to Reflex saves, and he loses it against people outside of the grapple. He retains his Dex bonus to AC against the person/dragon he's grappling.

You might be thinking of the Snatch feat - a creature held in the mouth of a dragon with Snatch gets no save against a breath weapon. But if Ozzy is Medium, he's won't have the feat...

So if the grappler is attacking with his bare hands (bear hands?), does that count as a natural weapon and thus disallow the barbarian from making iterative grapple attacks too?

Bare hands don't appear to count as natural weapons. For example, a creature with a single natural weapon adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage. There are creatures with fists and one non-fist natural weapon who add 1.5x Str bonus with that weapon, implying that despite having fists, their bite/gore/whatever is their sole natural weapon, which means that fists don't count.

-Hyp.

 

[BartD]

...
Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

So if you're using natural weapons, your base attack bonus does not allow you multiple attacks.

I have not been able to find the exact text you quote (where is it from?), but it certainly sounds like the usual rule.

But... maybe the specific grappling rules (which could imply multiple natural attacks with one natural weapon) trump the general rule on the number of natural attacks? Ok, that's mostly arguing for argument's sake. I agree your interpretation sounds reasonable.

Reasonable but with a weird consequence. I find it really weird that a character with BAB +6 gets multiple real-damage attacks with his dagger or armor spikes while a non-classed creature only ever gets one unless it has Rake or something like that. So for example, just because it is grappling, a predator like a wyvern cannot both bite and sting? Weird.
(Edit: Or does "If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and stings" mean that it gets a sting attack in addition to its bite?)

 

[Nail]

... I agree your interpretation sounds reasonable....

FYI: The phrase "sounds reasonable" should never be used when discussiong the 3.xe grappling rules.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I have not been able to find the exact text you quote (where is it from?), but it certainly sounds like the usual rule.

MM312.

(Edit: Or does "If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and stings" mean that it gets a sting attack in addition to its bite?)

The wyvern has a BAB of +7 and Improved Grab.

Due to Improved Grab, its "Damage Your Opponent" grapple checks don't deal unarmed strike (nonlethal) damage; they deal talon damage. (Including in the round when the hold is established.)

So in a round when the wyvern begins grappling, he can make a single 'Damage Your Opponent' grapple check (not an attack with a natural weapon, though it deals talon damage), and also make a single attack with a light weapon at -4 (tail sting). One of those will be at an effective -5 penalty, since he's using successively lower base attack bonus.

"It establishes a hold and stings" can happen in the first round if the wyvern is taking the full attack action, as long as it didn't attack with the sting before it attacks with its talons. The wyvern has six natural weapons: sting, bite, wing, wing, talon, talon. He can use all six in a full attack action. He can only use one while grappling. So if he attacks with a talon first, and establishes a grapple with Improved Grab, he is now grappling and can only attack with one natural weapon out of the five he hasn't yet used this round. He's better-advised to attack with bite, wing, wing before he attacks with a talon, so that once he establishes the grapple, his one natural attack he's allowed to use is selected from sting or remaining talon, rather than from sting, talon, bite, wing, wing. (Really, he's advised to sting before his first talon as well, but that doesn't match the flavour of "establishes a hold and stings".)

-Hyp.