How does Burning Wheel play?

[SavageRobby]

After reading some interesting things about Burning Wheel meta-mechanics and ideas, I picked it up mainly with an eye towards stealing some of those mechanics for my other games, and probably still will. But after reading it, the game itself sounds ... interesting. Certainly it is a bit different than the norm (I know, that is to be expected from an indie darling). But how does it actually play?

The scripting of Tests of Wills and Combat is an interesting idea, but does it work? For example, it seems like combat would be fairly slow, but brutal, graphic, interesting and short (that is to say, unless both sides do nothing but Avoid, a good shot or two and someone is down).

Also, my normal group are (mostly) not "gamers" - they're friends that like our biweekly/monthly Savage Worlds games, but are just as wont to play board games or poker or hang out. Is this the kind of game that would interest them, or is it more of a "gamers" game?

Any comments anyone has whose has played the game would be much appreciated.

 

[Woas]

Yes, I play/ed the game. Current game is on hold and not sure it'll come back which I'll explain.

I think BW is a great read. It's like a Moby Dick or a The Great Gatsby of RPG text. It's just a good read for GM advice in general. But playing the game is a different story. Don't get me wrong the core mechanics are sound. Roll some d6s, 4,5, and 6s are successes. Meet or beat a determined difficulty number with successes and you pass the test. It's all those extra rules... Test of Wills, Fight! and IMO lots and lots of 'corner case' rules really bog a potentially great game down.

Scripting can and will be a headache. To be honest I don't know how people do it. Over on the BW message boards if you go back and try to scrape some gameplay tips/advice like I did it might seem like BW and the scripting method is really easy-peasy. But I realized most of those answers and pieces of advice are from the creator(s) of the game and they know it inside and out.

By the sound of it, you an I are in the same boat. The group I game with are very 'casual gamers'. It would not be a problem if next week instead of playing a RPG we played Smash Bros., Settlers of Catan or just go to a bar. Is BW a "game for gamers?" I can't really say. What is a "gamer"? What I can say is BW takes a lot of effort. If the players aren't ready to put in the effort a GM typically does into a game 1:1, then it's probably not a game for them.

And thats why that BW game I was part of is on hold. My group of gamers at least are not looking for such a commitment when it comes to a game. We play Savage Worlds instead.

 

[Berandor]

I agree that the whole BW game has a learning curve. It's probably best if you start off the just the basic rules and introduce specific elements over time.

I think scripting works fine, really. Maybe if you start with a Duel of Wits, you won't have too many seperate elements to check up, and use Bloody Versus combat at first. Then do the scripted Fight! without stances. And then full throttle.

But yes, it does have a learning curve.

 

[jdrakeh]

Well, I think that the most unbiased and accurate review online is here. Dan Davenport's review offers a different take but is also unbiased. As with many Indie games, you should take the overly glowing reviews with a grain (or a few grains) of salt, as many of them are penned by acquaintances of the author who have an agenda to help sell the game (sadly, that's just part of the Indie RPG culture).

John's review (linked to above) does a good job of pinning down the game's weak points and ferreting out the gold (and there is gold in it). Note that John's review is also of the first edition, however -- a revised edition of BW has since been published that drops some of the problem bits (such as counting paces in combat). Overall, though, I feel that most of John's criticism is still applicable to the revised edition. As others have mentioned BW has a lot of moving pieces to track at one time. Also, resource management occurs on a scale unlike any that I've seen elsewhere (bean counting is a huge part of the game).

I really wanted to love Burning Wheel. I bought both editions, plus both Monster Burners and Burning Empires. It didn't dawn on me until last Fall that if I have to try to like a game, it ain't meant to be -- love of a game just happens and doesn't need to be forced (i.e., it's a natural condition, not a thing you have to make happen). I still like a lot of Burning Wheel (the life paths are brilliant, for example) and pilfer Luke's idea regularly but, as a game, as a total package deal, it doesn't come together in a manner that I find conducive to the way that I enjoy playing RPGs. To me, Burning Wheel is a bit like the Rolemaster of Indie RPGs where intuitive design is concerned.

 

[Theron]

I've never managed to bring it to the gaming table and with my current group of prospective players and my own preferences, I probably won't.

That having been said, there are a couple of things that would be fairly easy to export from BW into just about any RPG, namely Instincts and Beliefs.

 

[Asmor]

It's probably best if you start off the just the basic rules and introduce specific elements over time.

Fear the Boot just had an interview with the dude who created Burning Wheel. In the podcast, one of the things he mentioned was that unlike a lot of RPGs, Burning Wheel is front-loaded with complexity, but once you get that down there's nothing left to worry about. He contrasted this with D&D, where as you get more powerful you get more options and abilities.

Personally, I can't get into BW. I just can't read through the books. I flipped through them a few times and it just seemed overwhelming.

 

[Aus_Snow]

It certainly has a reputation (deserved, it seems) for being very crunchy 'for an indie game'. Perhaps. . . crunchy, full stop.

Haven't gotten around to trying it, and not sure if I would at any stage. I agree though, that there are some really nice aspects to the system.

 

[LostSoul]

You could try running The Sword or The Gift (one-shot demos) and see how you like it, but my gut says that if your group is mostly casual gamers, it won't be a good mix. BW is a gamer's game.

 

[lukzu]

Well, I think that the most unbiased and accurate review online is here. Dan Davenport's review offers a different take but is also unbiased. As with many Indie games, you should take the overly glowing reviews with a grain (or a few grains) of salt, as many of them are penned by acquaintances of the author who have an agenda to help sell the game (sadly, that's just part of the Indie RPG culture).

This is just isn't true.

Ken Hite is not my buddy from college spamming rpg.net with bogus reviews.

Also, John's review is obsolete. It's for the pre-Revised edition of BW (aka Classic). Dan Davenport's review is much better.

 

[Berandor]

Also, resource management occurs on a scale unlike any that I've seen elsewhere (bean counting is a huge part of the game).

I would ask you to clarify this, because BW uses an abstract resource stat and I can't really see that being even close to D&D and it's gp counting, hp counting, and if anybody still does that, weight and encumbrance, specific components, and so on.

On the other hand, you do log every test you make for advancement.