Level Up (A5E) How does Combat Directives (marshal) work, actually?

[Guiler Luchi]

In addition, when a creature uses your Commanding Presence to make an attack, it can simultaneously use one Sanguine Knot combat maneuver that you know

With Commanding Presence, a Marshall can forgo one of his attacks to make an ally use a reaction to attack. But any combat maneuver require an action, bonus action or reaction. So, with Commanding Presence, can you bypass actions limitation? If that is true, can an ally use any maneuver, including stances, and reactions? How does maneuvers with extra attacks works? All the attacks are made as part of the Commanding Presence Reaction?



It seems to me that only action maneuvers can be used, and when they should not provide extra attacks. But there are action maneuvers that don't make a character attacks (like doubletime). How this would work? The character would attack and take the maneuver action?

Restricting combat directives to only action maneuvers which make an ally attack (and not receiving extra attacks) seems too much limitation (almost no Sanguine Knot meets these requirements). But giving an ally a whole action/bonus action + the attack they are making seems too strong(?). Hope someone could clarify me this rule because I love the marshall class and want to play with one.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

extra attack specifies it only works on your turn, so no, you can't get extra attacks from combat directives (this is actually something i didn't notice the first time someone asked about combat directives over a year ago, apparently). otherwise i'd say the maneuver just works like it normally does (unless it's something with a very specific trigger, like shoulder check, in which case uh...lol no).

 

[noodohs]

It's important to remember that an attack is a type of action and a maneuver is another type of action. The text says they can make an attack, which means just that, but it also says that the person making that attack can instead use a specific maneuver that the Marshal knows from a specific tradition. That's really all there is, you pick either a regular attack or one of the Marshal's qualifying maneuvers.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

It's important to remember that an attack is a type of action and a maneuver is another type of action. The text says they can make an attack, which means just that, but it also says that the person making that attack can instead use a specific maneuver that the Marshal knows from a specific tradition. That's really all there is, you pick either a regular attack or one of the Marshal's qualifying maneuvers.

no, it says they can simultaneously use a maneuver. i'd still agree that the attack granted from the reaction would be mixed in with a maneuver that normally lets you attack, but "simultaneously" and "instead" are very different words with very different meanings.

 

[Guiler Luchi]

Thanks for the answers guys, but i still don't get how it works in the action economy. If, with combat directives, I use Doubletime, or Hurl Ally (examples of action or bonus action that doesn't grant an attack), would I still make the Commanding Presence attack? As written, it should be 1 attack + the whole combat maneuver. I think its more fair if only the combat maneuver is resolved, which implies that in the Doubletime example no attack would be made. But that is not what simultaneously means: both the maneuver and attack be resolved. In that case, using an attack maneuver would grant two attacks: the Commanding Presence and the maneuver.

 

[noodohs]

no, it says they can simultaneously use a maneuver. i'd still agree that the attack granted from the reaction would be mixed in with a maneuver that normally lets you attack, but "simultaneously" and "instead" are very different words with very different meanings.

My point wasn't that, it's that a maneuver isn't an attack. So you can't just use ANY maneuver as your attack, which seemed to be what OP was suggesting (as I read it, anyway). So sure, you can attack and use one of a specific subset of maneuvers, but it's not any maneuver and also a specific maneuver.

 

[Guiler Luchi]

My point wasn't that, it's that a maneuver isn't an attack. So you can't just use ANY maneuver as your attack, which seemed to be what OP was suggesting (as I read it, anyway). So sure, you can attack and use one of a specific subset of maneuvers, but it's not any maneuver and also a specific maneuver.

So what are this subset? Only maneuver that make you attack? This is so restrictive that in level 5, when the feat is learned, you cant even use combat directives.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

My point wasn't that, it's that a maneuver isn't an attack. So you can't just use ANY maneuver as your attack, which seemed to be what OP was suggesting (as I read it, anyway). So sure, you can attack and use one of a specific subset of maneuvers, but it's not any maneuver and also a specific maneuver.

...could you clarify with an example?

 

[noodohs]

I don't understand. It's right in the original post: "In addition, when a creature uses your Commanding Presence to make an attack, it can simultaneously use one Sanguine Knot combat maneuver that you know."

Your (the Marshal's) Commanding Presence allows someone else to use their reaction to make an attack instead of you. It cannot be a maneuver, it must be the attack action. OP was asking about the Combat Directives feature, which you get later, that says that they can, in addition to that attack (not a maneuver), they can choose to use "one Sanguine Knot combat maneuver that you [the Marshal] know." So with combat directives, as you said, they can do both, but they do not get to use their own maneuvers (although they do have to spend their own exertion to use your maneuver). As I read it in the original post, it sounded like OP was basically asking if you could use any action for the "attack" portion of this, and the answer is no. It specifically tells you to make an attack, not to take any action you feel like, and maneuvers are a type of action (not a type of attack).

I'm not sure what exactly is "restrictive" about this. You get to make the attack you were already going to get to make, but you also get to use a maneuver. Heck, you don't even have to normally be able to use maneuvers to use that maneuver. So a Marshal can allow a sorcerer to use a maneuver, which is pretty neat.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Your (the Marshal's) Commanding Presence allows someone else to use their reaction to make an attack instead of you. It cannot be a maneuver, it must be the attack action. OP was asking about the Combat Directives feature, which you get later, that says that they can, in addition to that attack (not a maneuver), they can choose to use "one Sanguine Knot combat maneuver that you [the Marshal] know." So with combat directives, as you said, they can do both, but they do not get to use their own maneuvers (although they do have to spend their own exertion to use your maneuver). As I read it in the original post, it sounded like OP was basically asking if you could use any action for the "attack" portion of this, and the answer is no. It specifically tells you to make an attack, not to take any action you feel like, and maneuvers are a type of action (not a type of attack).

...oh, so...so we agree, then (except maybe whether or not you get a second attack from any attack maneuvers, i would say no to that and say instead that the maneuver gets added as a rider to the commanding presence attack).

also i'm pretty sure OP was never asking if you can take ANY action, just any sanguine knot MANEUVER REGARDLESS of action TYPE, and whether that REPLACED or ADDED TO the commanding presence attack. OP can correct me if i'm wrong though