How does striking an opponent heal your allies?

[Banshee16]

Heck, there are multiple times hockey players have done that for themselves.

Here are some comments I posted here about four years ago, which are applicable to the current debate.

Hit points don't represent skill, luck etc so much as scale with these things.

Every hit deals at least some real damage (evidence: if a high-level fighter takes 100 seperate 1 hp bites from poisonous snakes, he has to make 100 seperate Fortitude saves, not some smaller number).

However, at higher levels you get better at avoiding damage; a 10 hp hit represents less damage when it happens to a character with 150 hp than it does to a character with 15 hp.

This doesn't mean the first character is physically tougher. (Actually, he probably is, but not by nearly enough to explain having ten times as many hit points).

It also doesn't mean that there are seperate hit points for luck, skill, divine favor, physical damage, willpower and so on. That "flavoured hit point" model leads to silly results as soon as you look at it for too long, the fact that the first-edition DMG seems to endorse it notwithstanding. Luck, for example, does not ablate as it is used, on most understandings of what luck is.

It means the 150 hp character, by whatever means, manages to mitigate some of the damage the 15 hp character would have taken. The correct model is not {hit points} = {physical damage} + {luck, skill etc}, it is more like {hit points} = {physical damage} x {luck, skill etc} - combat skill and so on act as a scaling factor, which in practice is approximately equal to experience level.

I believe that this model has two advantages over every alternative model I have seen: it is (at least tied for) the most consistent with the rules as written, and it is the least weird in terms of what hit points correspond to from an in-character standpoint. The only thing in the game this fails to model is healing spells, which need serious work to make game-world sense no matter what model of hit points you use.

Regardless, I am of the opinion that as long as you have one or more hit points remaining, you aren't too seriously injured; it's only once you hit zero or negatives that you can be considered badly hurt.

(As posted by Jeff Heikkinen to the ENWorld message boards 10/5/2003, with minor clarifications added since.)

(And here's Bradd W Szonye, more recently and on a different list)

Gamers frequently complain that D&D lets heroes soak up ridiculous
amounts of damage, even though the rulebooks say otherwise. Hit points
do represent the ability to survive attacks, but that doesn't
(necessarily) mean that characters take it on the chin and then soak the
damage! For most heroes, it means that they deflect the blows or roll
with the punch, or the bullet hits the cigarette case in his pocket, or
"two inches to the right and I would've been dead." Attacks do /not/
cause serious harm unless they take the character to 0 hp or below.
Anything less than that gets parried, dodged, lucked out, divine
favored, fated away, or anything else appropriate to the character.
(Maybe even soaked up, if you're playing that kind of hero.) There's no
single rationale for this; the rules say to use anything that makes
sense for your character.

....

It's no different from creating a character for an action movie. You can
come up with rationales for his amazing feats, you can just shrug and
accept it, or you can whine about how it's not really logical. I know
which kind of person I /don't/ like to sit next to in a movie theater.

The idea of hit points as skill should be fine.....but it needs to be tied to a mechanic where, in instances where skill can't contribute....like where you're not aware of a threat or something, hp don't matter.

Like, let's look at the Red Wedding in GRR Martin's books.....or something similar. Your lvl 15 fighter with 120 hp is sitting at dinner with his lord. He's not in his armour, as it's considered uncouth to be wearing armour, and carrying weapons at court. An assassin dressed as a page is distributing food. The PC is in the middle of talking to someone across the table, and the page is putting some buns down on the table in front of him, then suddenly lunges with the dagger he had under his silver platter, and cuts the PC's throat.

Well, he's a lvl 1 expert or commoner or something. Against a flat footed opponent, who is not wearing armour, he's actually got a decent chance of hitting. 50%? 55%? What damage will he do? 1d4, which is definitely not a threat to that fighter....even though the fighter wasn't in a combat situation, didn't realize there was danger, was unarmed, had no magic, etc.

If they allowed us to apply the Coup de Grace rules to situations where characters were not defending themselves, then that would at least help somewhat. But Coup de Grace only applies if the character is helpless. Not just undefended.

I've always thought of a variant rule saying something like....if you're sleeping, or unable or unwilling to defend yourself, your HP score is actually just your CON. Go to 0, and you're down. Something like that.

It wouldn't count in a situation like in a dungeon, when the PC is armed and armoured, walking around, expecting danger. Even if he's sneak attacked by a rogue, he knows that he's in a dangerous situation, so his HP count. But when he's sitting at dinner, with a bun in one hand, and a flagon of wine in the other? He really shouldn't be able to get hit a whole bunch of times and just laugh about it.

Banshee

 

[JohnSnow]

The idea of hit points as skill should be fine.....but it needs to be tied to a mechanic where, in instances where skill can't contribute....like where you're not aware of a threat or something, hp don't matter.

Like, let's look at the Red Wedding in GRR Martin's books.....or something similar.

...

I've always thought of a variant rule saying something like....if you're sleeping, or unable or unwilling to defend yourself, your HP score is actually just your CON. Go to 0, and you're down. Something like that.

It wouldn't count in a situation like in a dungeon, when the PC is armed and armoured, walking around, expecting danger. Even if he's sneak attacked by a rogue, he knows that he's in a dangerous situation, so his HP count. But when he's sitting at dinner, with a bun in one hand, and a flagon of wine in the other? He really shouldn't be able to get hit a whole bunch of times and just laugh about it.

Banshee

Agreed. There's actually a couple ways I've thought of to do this.

One really nasty option is this:

"If you're ambushed, damage for the surprise round goes directly to CON."

Similarly, when your hit points go to 0, you start taking CON damage. And of course, if your CON hits 0, you die. Yes, that means it really sucks if you get ambushed. And it makes ambushes almost uniformly lethal.

Another option is to rule that if you are ambushed and can't defend yourself, that all the damage you take in the surprise round counts for purposes of exceeding your Massive Damage Threshold (which should probably be lowered from 50 points...). So if you're ambushed for, say, 25 points of damage in one round, it counts as massive damage and forces a fort save (or something).

Alternatively, or additionally, you can use a more realistic massive damage threshold. Saga's notion of "exceed fort defense" and drop the target 1 "step" works pretty well. In combination with the system above, it would potentially allow for a group of commoners to ambush an unaware high level warrior and kill him.

Finally, you could allow an ambush to bypass the character's positive hit point total and inflict negative hit points. When those equal your CON, you die. It's kinda like the above rule about CON damage but with just slightly different flavor.

It's worth noting that on the same page of the 1e DMG I quoted earlier, EGG talked about what happens (scarring, permanent injuries, and the like) to a character who drops much below 0 hit points.

Hit points are an abstraction. They've always been an abstraction. However, despite their quirks, they're a good abstraction for use in the game. You just have to figure out what houserules you need in your game to enforce the level of "realism" or "grittiness" you want.

Some people want none of that, and that's fine, but I'd personally like to see some guidelines from the WotC designers for those of us who want a bit more. I personally think this could be handled nicely with something akin to the Saga Edition condition track. The degree of "lethality" could then be adjusted with a few minor tweaks.

For instance, the default Saga rule is: "If you exceed your opponents Fort defense, he drops one level on the condition track. If he drops 5 steps, he's unconscious and dying."

That's easily adjustable for special circumstances. To whit, you could append this rule:

"For every 5 (or 10) points by which the damage exceeds your Fort, you move one extra step down the condition track."

or this one:

"When your target is unaware and not expecting combat, you may move them one step down the condition track with a successful attack that does damage, even if you don't exceed their Fort Defense."

or this:

"When you strike a character who is unaware and not expecting combat, the blow deals triple damage."

To follow up with the Red Wedding example, if 5 commoners ambush a heroic character in one round, they might be able to do him in. Or they wound him terribly. If that's not enough, you could combine the rules. Or make the ambush cause quadruple damage. Or move someone two steps. Of course, you might put in a few feats that are devoted to moving someone down the condition track.

It should probably still take 2 or 3 people to ambush and kill that 15th level fighter. IIRC, GreatJon Umber managed to overturn a table and fight for a while. And they all probably started down a couple steps when the ambush occurred - they were drinking heavily, remember?

And I don't know if it should be possible for level 1 commoners in any case. A few low-level rogues, on the other hand...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The idea of hit points as skill should be fine.....but it needs to be tied to a mechanic where, in instances where skill can't contribute....like where you're not aware of a threat or something, hp don't matter.

Like, let's look at the Red Wedding in GRR Martin's books.....or something similar. Your lvl 15 fighter with 120 hp is sitting at dinner with his lord. He's not in his armour, as it's considered uncouth to be wearing armour, and carrying weapons at court. An assassin dressed as a page is distributing food. The PC is in the middle of talking to someone across the table, and the page is putting some buns down on the table in front of him, then suddenly lunges with the dagger he had under his silver platter, and cuts the PC's throat.

Well, he's a lvl 1 expert or commoner or something. Against a flat footed opponent, who is not wearing armour, he's actually got a decent chance of hitting. 50%? 55%? What damage will he do? 1d4, which is definitely not a threat to that fighter....even though the fighter wasn't in a combat situation, didn't realize there was danger, was unarmed, had no magic, etc.

Since the damage is apparently not enough to kill the Fighter, something is wrong in this scene.
Apparently, the Commoner doesn't get to cut the PC's throat - in the last moment, the character notices the threat, jumps up and blocks the Commoners weapon hand. A skilled Assassin might have been able to do kill the Fighter, but a common man has no chance.

You might point out that characters in books and movies sometimes fall prey to such attacks - but these are either not protagonists, or they just stop being them. The PC is always the protagonist. The game gives us some (a lot?) rules to kill a PC, but only if you follow the mechanical rules for it. If you don't, it's up to the DM and the player to decide if such an attack works. If the target is not a PC at all, the rules in this situation don't matter - the DM decides whether it happens this way or not.

Sudden character death due to harmless peasant is just something like a Mind Flayer cult trying to block the sun - you don't need rules for it, because it is an exceptional situation, and it's only there for the story of the game.

 

[CleverNickName]

"The cleric just critical hit the dragon for 18 damage! that's inspiring, I suddenly feel healed"

I just saved fifteen percent on my auto insurance! My mutilated arm is suddenly mended!

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I just saved fifteen percent on my auto insurance! My mutilated arm is suddenly mended!

There totally needs to be a D&D game version of that commercial.

DM : Well, that fails your save but I have some good news.

PC : What, is it fire damage, I'm immune to fire damage!

DM : No, it's sonic. But I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance....

 

[Kaffis]

The argument that hit points represent psychological AND physical fortitude is the best I've heard yet, but it still feels weak. An adrenaline rush is a great way to explain how characters gain temporary hit points, but not actual healing...an injured soldier might be inspired to ignore his wounds and press on, but at the end of the battle he is still gravely wounded. No actual healing took place.

Who said he was gravely wounded in the first place? He wasn't gravely wounded -- he had painful, superficial wounds and cramps that were dogging his spirits and overwhelming his senses. The inspiration/morale-based surge of adrenaline allowed him to ignore the pain and give him hope to keep fighting. When the encounter is over and the adrenaline surge passes, he is able to sit down and take a breather, allowing his superficial wounds to clot over and let the pain dull.

Seriously. Everybody who ever played a sport as a child has heard "walk it off!" and recognizes that there's some truth to it as a lasting effect.

 

[Vigilance]

And after the game the player went out and danced the night away, right?

So, because he didn't feel good, and was still in pain, he wasn't healed?

If he had 30 hp max, had been reduced to 3 hp, healed to 15 by the morale boost, then reduced back to 10 during the course of the game, then no, he wouldn't go out and "dance the night away".

But that doesn't mean he wasn't healed.

HP have to represent something more than physical damage.

High level fighters have the HP of several elephants.

If it's all physical, and not morale, skill and luck, then HP make no sense.

This is also why HP are rolled randomly.

Because it's luck. Some people are luckier than others.

And finally, I'd like to point out that the game gives us an ironclad way to see how much of HP are physical.

It's called the Con bonus.

At most, Con represents 40% of a fighter's HP, since a max Con fighter gets 40% more HP.

But that 18 Con fighter might still wind up with fewer HP than the 10 Con fighter who rolls really well on his HP.

Why is that?

Because HP don't represent the body.

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

You know? You're right! Losing hit points is about scratches and papercuts. That's what Greataxes do.
Anyway...

You've all taked about healing and mostly melee combat. But what about spells? A meteor Swarm that actually hurls balls of fire right in your face (anyone read order of the Stick lately?) just make you tired? or lose morale? and you heal your burned skin by being "inspired" or "motivated" as you see your cleric buddy "critical hitting" the dragon with his "deadly" mornigstar and his 14 STR? As many said, it coud give you temporary hit points at best to continue fighting ignoring your actual pain, but not healing there, my friends.

 

[WayneLigon]

You've all taked about healing and mostly melee combat. But what about spells? A meteor Swarm that actually hurls balls of fire right in your face (anyone read order of the Stick lately?) just make you tired? or lose morale? and you heal your burned skin by being "inspired" or "motivated" as you see your cleric buddy "critical hitting" the dragon with his "deadly" mornigstar and his 14 STR? As many said, it coud give you temporary hit points at best to continue fighting ignoring your actual pain, but not healing there, my friends.

Same thing applies. You didn't actually get 'crisped' but you avoided most of the effect, maybe getting a little singed. You can explain it any number of ways.

At the end of the day, it's a simple fact that it's an abstract system so trying to pick out individual points like poisons, spells, and really anything else is just useless. It's been badly explained before, and God knows the writers of modules and adventures and spells and such have not been forced into a united front on this and a few other issues like they should have been from the start so it's led to confusion and more confusion.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." -- Winston Churchhill. Same applies to the concept of hit points. It's a cludgy system with tons of silly special cases and places where it simply doesn't work right but it's still one of the simplest and most elegant systems we have for simulating heroic adventuring.

Yeah, I could write a five page revision of the entire concept to make it more realistic and tighten up most of the loopholes and stuff but that would only result in two things that make more work for me: more dead would-be heroes (thus, game stoppage while they either scramble to raise him, or the guy has to make a new PC and go through all the rigamarole of integrating him and his backstory into a plot that's usually already well along) and a lot of work for me for nothing, since a system is already in place that does, mmm, 80% of what I'd like to see.

 

[Kaffis]

"The cleric just critical hit the dragon for 18 damage! that's inspiring, I suddenly feel healed"..."Wow, the Lawful Good Epic Fighter just critical hit the other dragon for 74 damage!!!!!.... well that's not as inspiring..."

The fighter just kind of grunts as he sinks his greataxe eight inches into the dragon. The cleric (or, rather, the warlord -- the cleric has a divine source), on the other hand, knows something about *presentation* -- he looses a defiant battlecry as he lands his hit, warning the dragon that he'll not have the luxury of ruing the day he angered the village that he torched, and that he and his allies are here to enact the village's vengeance.