D&D 5E How does Surprise work in 5e?

[Dausuul]

I would not grant surprise in this situation, because the PCs know there is a potential fight brewing and are on their guard. If the bandits pretended to be friendly traders, and the snipers opened up with no warning, then they could get surprise (I'd probably give the PCs an Insight check to sense something amiss with the "traders").

However, the snipers do get advantage for being unseen.

 

[Celtavian]

The way I handle this situation is to do the following:

1. The bad guys that are interacting with or approaching the PCs are a distraction for the snipers. They are just as surprised as the PCs when the snipers attack because they are not watching the snipers (that would give them away) and their signal to attack is after the arrows hit.

2. Surprise round occurs. Snipers get their shots. PCs and bad guys interacting with PCs are surprised, they get no actions.

3. Attacks hit signaling bad guys interacting with PCs to attack.

4. Start initiative as normal against all combatants.

Realistically bad guys don't know when the sniper is going to strike unless they can coordinate with magical communication like message or telepathic link, so the surprise round would affect them as well. If they were looking at the snipers, then I'm giving my PCs a chance to notice them doing that. That means they have a chance to make an active check to spot the snipers. If the ambushers are smart, they've told the Bad Guys approaching the PCs to not give them away. A lot of times if you take the time to think through how the scenario would work and the available communication system, the rule works without modification.

If the PCs see the Bad Guys approaching, you should give them a chance to react to them if they have time before the snipers approach. You should have all those factors considered before the encounter and write yourself a step by step set up for how to run it if you don't have it firm in your mind in advance.

 

[Hriston]

There's an example of exactly this type of situation in one of the recent Acquisitions Inc. games. The PCs were confronted by a group of Dragon Cultists and began fighting with them. Meanwhile several wyverns hid themselves around the perimeter of the area. Chris Perkins, the DM, gave the PCs the benefit of a Perception check rather than just going with the passive score, but they all failed their rolls anyway. So what happened when the wyverns attacked was that the PCs were surprised, and not only did the wyverns get an "extra attack" on the surprise round (i.e. the beginning of a new encounter), but the cultists all got to attack too while the PCs just stood there because they were surprised. This resulted in a pretty devastating defeat for Acquisitions Inc. by the way.

I just watched this again on the wizards website. Its the PAX East 2014 game. The combat runs from around 1:15 to 1:30. I just wanted to clarify the above with what I just saw. First, a minor point, the perception check was called for before combat began. This very well could have been a passive check which is how I would have done it. Secondly, the PCs all had low initiative rolls, so the cultists got to go first. Once the cultists had made their attacks, the DM announced the presence of the wyverns and they attacked, surprising the PCs and turning this first round into a surprise round retroactively. This came as a surprise to the players when the next round began and they hadn't been given the opportunity to attack yet. It was the cultists' turn again. So it wasn't, as I mistakenly said above, that a "new encounter" had begun, but that the first round was ruled to be a surprise round because that was when the wyverns took action. I hope this helps by way of example.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] Thanks for the example. Man, imposing both a surprise round and preventing the PCs from acting during the normal round...that seems excessively harsh. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Where the confusion lies for me is that the 5e rules never describe a "Surprise Round" as a thing. Rather, "surprised" is treated almost like a condition that one imposes one another, causing them to be unable to move or act during their first turn of combat. Of course, in a simple fight this effectively serves as a Surprise Round; however, once you have multiple enemies with different Stealth checks or different strategies, it becomes rather unclear how it's supposed to work.

At least, I've gone back over the PHB and the Basic Rules and couldn't find anything about a "Surprise Round."

So it sounds like Chris Perkins was just running things like we DMs always had, and bypassing the 5e rules (or, in this instance, stacking a Surprise Round with the 5e surprise rules)?

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Ok, I guess I'll say it yet again... ... You're thinking "backwards".

I've said this multiple times since 5e has come out as a free PDF. There are a lot of people who are "new" to 5e's style of play (re: 0e/1e/BECMI style). These people, like the OP, go looking for rules in order to facilitate an idea. Close, but "backwards" in thinking. Bare with me...

What the OP needs to do is think of the set up, the situation, and then imagine how it would play out in a story or movie. Don't think of rules or potential rules at this point. Ignore all that for now. Just imagine it all...

I picture a road in the woods. The PC's are walking down it, casually chatting to themselves. Then they see some potential brigands up ahead...or maybe they are "but poor travelling circus performers" The PC's go into suspicious mode (re: passive Perception v. Stealth of the bandits in hiding). They approach, and the folks up ahead put their hands on their weapons and demand tribute to pass "their road"...and that it would be bad for the PC's to refuse. The PC's stop and place their hands on their weapons. "So, that's how it's going to be then. So be it!" The bad guys draw weapons, the PC's draw weapons...then, suddenly, arrows fly from the sides! The PC's yell "AMBUSH!" and charge towards the original bandits.

Ok. Now that that scenario has played out in your mind...now you go looking for rules to support that narrative. If you don't find them, you MAKE IT UP! Seeing as the OP has decided that "Surprise" seems like the best rule is understandable, as I believe he said he comes from a "3e" mindset...and everyone knows there are a billion ways of giving bonuses, penalties, adjustments and whatnot for AC, attacks, or any other numerous numbers to be crunched. But 5e isn't like that. It's fast and loose. It has a "Surprise" rule, sure, but as I said...think of the situation FIRST and then find a rule. If you can't find one to fit...MAKE IT UP!

So, I'd simply just say "Arrows fly from the bushes! [rolls some dice, some hit, some miss, some damage is dealt]. Ok, now it's Round 1. What does everyone want to do? The bandits in front look to move towards you to engage. You can all make out two bowmen on the left of you and two on the right, each pair about 30' away. They seem to be reaching to notch arrows to fire again". That's it. Simple. Fast. Loose. Don't try and "figure out" how the rules for Surprise would or wouldn't work in this scenario, because 5e rules tend to be of a "simplistic approach". In this case, Surprise obviously assumes "Side A and Side B". Not "Side A, Side B, Side B2, Side B3". If it helps, think of the PC's and the bandits on the road as being Side A, and the hidden bandits as Side B. Side B has "surprise" (meaning the visible bandits and the PC's don't do anything the "surprise round"). Er, yeah, basically what I said the first time.

PS: What Chris Perkins was doing was the fallback...in other words MAKE IT UP! He just made it up, using Surprise as a base to MAKE IT UP. That is how the 5e rules are supposed to be used. Fast and loose, baby...fast and loose!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=45197]pming[/MENTION]
Haha, well that's refreshing to be mistaken for a newer 3e/4e player Thanks for the laugh!

Since I'm learning the new rules, I thought I might be missing something about the surprise rules...they're so...skinny. Even 1e had more detailed surprise rules than 5e!

I'll just go with what my gut instinct and [MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION] recommended. Surprise round for snipers if called for. Resolved. Cheers.

 

[Hriston]

You're right, there doesn't seem to be a reference to a "surprise round" in the rules. These were the words Chris Perkins used to tell the players why they were unable to attack on the first round, i.e. because they were surprised. They would have been able to attack during the second round, but by the time all the cultists and the two wyverns had had two rounds of attacks (they had beat the PCs on initiative remember) everyone except the cleric was dead or unconscious, and he chose to parlay on his turn. It certainly was harsh, and I think Chris Perkins forced this outcome to further the story, making the groups' quest to defeat the cultists more personal, but, for me, it cleared up some of the confusion I had felt about surprise in the new rules. In this encounter it seems to come down to initiative. The wyverns must have beat PCs' initiative roll, and once they attacked the PCs became surprised for the rest of that round, and were thus unable to respond. If, on the other hand, one or more of the PCs had beat their opponents' initiative (which may as well have been a group initiative; we don't know) then they should have been able to attack on that first round before the wyverns swooped in. Whether they would then be subject to surprise is doubtful.

 

[MortalPlague]

The way I handle this situation is to do the following:

1. The bad guys that are interacting with or approaching the PCs are a distraction for the snipers. They are just as surprised as the PCs when the snipers attack because they are not watching the snipers (that would give them away) and their signal to attack is after the arrows hit.

2. Surprise round occurs. Snipers get their shots. PCs and bad guys interacting with PCs are surprised, they get no actions.

3. Attacks hit signaling bad guys interacting with PCs to attack.

4. Start initiative as normal against all combatants.

Realistically bad guys don't know when the sniper is going to strike unless they can coordinate with magical communication like message or telepathic link, so the surprise round would affect them as well. If they were looking at the snipers, then I'm giving my PCs a chance to notice them doing that. That means they have a chance to make an active check to spot the snipers. If the ambushers are smart, they've told the Bad Guys approaching the PCs to not give them away. A lot of times if you take the time to think through how the scenario would work and the available communication system, the rule works without modification.

If the PCs see the Bad Guys approaching, you should give them a chance to react to them if they have time before the snipers approach. You should have all those factors considered before the encounter and write yourself a step by step set up for how to run it if you don't have it firm in your mind in advance.

This. Exactly this.

Why complicate things? Give the archers a surprise volley, make sure the PCs have the chance to spot them if they're looking around (either passive or active perception, depending how they're doing it), then roll initiative!

 

[Hriston]

I guess I'm having trouble grasping the logic behind this, where editions I'm used to made surprise a bonus attack for those who surprised their enemy. I'm not sure how to interpret 5e's surprise rules in the narrative of my situation.

The way I would think about this if the PCs are surprised by the snipers and are thus unable to act or move on the first round is that the situation has changed unexpectedly. They thought they were about to fight a certain group of adversaries and then another group pops up and begins firing, maybe even from a direction they're not facing. In such a situation, just going ahead with what you were going to do anyway requires some decision-making in itself and a reassessment of the situation on the part of the PCs is inevitable.

Whether or not you impose surprise is of course up to you as the DM. I believe the rules are very squishy on that subject. But, personally, I would not impose surprise on the bandits waiting in the road as some of the other posters have suggested. I assume they are fully aware of the presence of the snipers and that any attack coming from that direction would be expected.

 

[jadrax]

So, being "surprised" by the couple guys in the woods means that the PCs can't move or take actions on their first turn of combat, even against the obvious bad guys right in front of them? Is that right?

Well it looks like it is right, but there is no way I would ever run it like that.

Personally in that situation, I would let the surprised party have there actions as normal, but be unable to act (or indeed react) against the foes surprising them.

Otherwise you could have a fight where each round a single goblin surprises the PC to totally lock them down (which I think is silly).