Pathfinder 1E How does the magus perform at high levels?

[Lord Pendragon]

I had it, and I barely ever failed to cast defensively... I think I had a +23 concentration roll by the end of the game, and the highest DC I ever had to make was DC 23 to cast a 4th-level spell.

Right, but what I'm asking is how often you need to cast defensively, in general, not how often you make the roll.

I'm thinking that at least levels 1-10, I can avoid the need to cast defensively most of the time. And if I do need to do so, I can use Spell Combat to dump a +5 circumstance bonus on it. At least in theory.

 

[mr_outsidevoice]

I cast defensively all the time, but I have never felt the need for Combat Casting. Early on I just cast buffs or attacked at range before entering the fray. Now, my concentration checks are that I only fail on a Natural 1 no matter what level spell I cast.

 

[SteelDraco]

Right, but what I'm asking is how often you need to cast defensively, in general, not how often you make the roll.

I'm thinking that at least levels 1-10, I can avoid the need to cast defensively most of the time. And if I do need to do so, I can use Spell Combat to dump a +5 circumstance bonus on it. At least in theory.

I didn't want to have to dance in and out of combat - I had people depending on me as a tank to engage foes, and two rogues in the party that I often flanked with. It made more sense to me to just keep my concentration check high and easily make the roll than move around and avoid rolling. If you've got a dedicated tank and the group doesn't need flankers, you could probably manage it fairly easily until you're facing a lot of reach critters.

Attack penalties suck for a medium BAB class. Except for Power Attack, I avoided them. Accurate Strike is too expensive to rely on it every round, and you won't get that for a while.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I didn't want to have to dance in and out of combat - I had people depending on me as a tank to engage foes, and two rogues in the party that I often flanked with. It made more sense to me to just keep my concentration check high and easily make the roll than move around and avoid rolling. If you've got a dedicated tank and the group doesn't need flankers, you could probably manage it fairly easily until you're facing a lot of reach critters.

*nod* This makes sense. At this point I'm not sure what the other players intend to bring to the group. We are usually pretty good about covering our bases though, so I expect there will be at least 2 full BAB melee of some sort, and quite possibly a rogue.

Attack penalties suck for a medium BAB class. Except for Power Attack, I avoided them. Accurate Strike is too expensive to rely on it every round, and you won't get that for a while.

Yeah, we'll have to see how things go at low levels. I'm not crazy about losing any hit either. I will probably avoid casting defensively at the lower levels. Looking at my number of spells available, I'm not sure I'll be doing much Spellstriking in the first few levels anyway. I'm thinking Shield/Color Spray will be my bread and butter for the first few levels.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

What magic items does a magus need?

So after taking in the advice from this thread, I wound up rolling up a dex-based magus for our upcoming game. I just liked the idea of him being lightly armored, which fits in well with the airship theme the campaign will have.

At level 1 he's got a rapier and carries Shield and Color Spray prepared, though at level 3 he'll swap to a gunblade (scimitar reskinned with a couple extras) and really start cooking.

I'm wondering what sorts of magic items other magi have prioritized (other than the general stat belt, resistance cloak, ring of protection, etc.)?

I'm definitely thinking Gloves of Elvenkind for the bonus to Concentration checks for pretty cheap, as well as level 1 Pearls of Power and a Wand of Shield, so I don't have to prep it anymore.

[Edit to add]: Of course the go-to armor for a dervish magus is Celestial Armor. Another post made me consider Celestial Full Plate, but I'm thinking the +1 AC you gain isn't worth the penalty to movement for wearing Medium Armor. Then again, if I wind up almost continually being under the effects of Overland Flight, that might not be such an issue...

Do any other items mesh particularly well with the magus?

 

[Epametheus]

My vague recollections of my party's tiefling magus in the Serpent Skull adventure path:

1) He had a mithril breastplate.

2) He took the arcanas for being able to use wands with spell combat with full caster level, which meant a great deal of fireballing later in the campaign.

3) He took combat casting and a trait to raise his concentration check by +2. Eventually, he couldn't fail concentration checks.

4) Aside from the wands, I think he was more or less geared out as a fighter. He fought with a longsword, though he agreed that a scimitar would've been objectively better.

5) He had a high strength, so he did use Power Attack, IIRC.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I read a post today talking about "wyroot" which is apparently a special material of some sort from Ultimate Equipment that can return a pool point whenever you confirm a crit with it. Worth looking into!

 

[Starbuck_II]

I read a post today talking about "wyroot" which is apparently a special material of some sort from Ultimate Equipment that can return a pool point whenever you confirm a crit with it. Worth looking into!

Yes, definately, if enemies are unconscious not dead you can Coup de Grace them all after battle for all your arcane pool points back.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Yes, definately, if enemies are unconscious not dead you can Coup de Grace them all after battle for all your arcane pool points back.

I don't think this would fit in with my CG pirate/swashbuckler's moral compass, but regaining some points whenever confirming a crit would still be pretty amazing. With a 15-20 threat range, that's gotta give me 1-2 back each combat!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

1) He had a mithril breastplate.

Nice. Was he strength-based? I'm aiming toward a Celestial Armor myself, mithril if my DM will allow it (there appears to be some dissention as to whether named items can be made of mithril to add those properties).

2) He took the arcanas for being able to use wands with spell combat with full caster level, which meant a great deal of fireballing later in the campaign.

It's funny you should mention that, I just noticed Fireball was on our spell list the other day. I'd been concentrating on swordplay so much that it'd completely slipped by me. Not sure how I feel about blasting, but as our group has no mage I may need to look into being able to fill that role when needed. Unfortunately I do not have the feats to be extremely good at it via wands.

3) He took combat casting and a trait to raise his concentration check by +2. Eventually, he couldn't fail concentration checks.

It takes a while for me to reach the no-fail with my highest level spells, though I do get there. I picked up a 3rd-party magus arcana that grants +3 to concentration checks myself.

4) Aside from the wands, I think he was more or less geared out as a fighter. He fought with a longsword, though he agreed that a scimitar would've been objectively better.

Eh, you play what's fun, right? Regarding being geared-out as a fighter, that is one of the problems I'm having getting suggestions for my magus. Lots of overlap with fighters or wizards, and not so much for magi in particular. Not that this is necessarily bad.

5) He had a high strength, so he did use Power Attack, IIRC.

*nod* I'm dex-based because I really wanted that image of a lightly armored swashbuckler, especially on an airship, and this seemed like a rare opportunity to do that and not be penalized for it mechanically, but I did play around with str-based at first.

I don't have Power Attack in my build at the moment, though that may change if my DM approves a custom spell I'm working on. Would still be much later in his progression, but he has the 13 str to qualify for the feat. How does Power Attack play out at 15th+ level? Do critter ACs rise too high for a 3/4 BAB class to afford it?

What wands did your magus favor? How did he store/wield them? I'm human, so no prehensile tails or hair.

I'm really thinking that wyroot is a must-have for magi going forward. Although it costs a swift action (which are in high demand as a magus), the ability to recover a couple points of arcane pool in a combat, even without the coup de grace cheese, is invaluable. Even 1 point means another full round of touch attacks at mid- to high-levels. Here's hoping my DM will allow me to make my sword's hilt out of it and have that count.

Are there any better gloves out there for a magus than Gloves of Elvenkind? There aren't many options listed at the PFOGC, but then I don't think it has Ultimate Equipment included yet.

Also, how do the rest of you feel about buffing int? I'll be bumping it to 20 at 8th-level. I'm wondering whether I should invest in a headband to take that farther, or invest in other items first. Naturally Dex will be my first priority as far as buffing items go, given how many things it improves for me.

Thoughts? Ideas? Tactics? Let's talk magus!

 

[N'raac]

It's funny you should mention that, I just noticed Fireball was on our spell list the other day. I'd been concentrating on swordplay so much that it'd completely slipped by me. Not sure how I feel about blasting, but as our group has no mage I may need to look into being able to fill that role when needed. Unfortunately I do not have the feats to be extremely good at it via wands.

I think our group's magus has the opposite issue. She noticed at the first scenario that, with a Gunslinger, Alchemist, Oracle and Witch as her teammates, her role probably needs to evolve into "Front Line Combatant" (although the gunslinger will partially fill that niche for a few levels, likely firing off a volley, then pulling his axe, until he can reload faster and/or fire into melee more accurately, which will almost certainly be 3rd level for one and 5th for both).

 

[Epametheus]

Blaster: Our magus was the party's primary blaster. As he levelled up and gained more spells per day and more pool points, it got easier for him to be tank, slasher, and blaster all at once.

Wyroot: It sure sounds nice, but I doubt you actually have to have it. As you get higher level you'll become more efficient with your pool points, and our magus didn't need them as often. The only battle I can think of him seriously using his pool past L11 involved running into like 30 degenerate serpentfolk and two greater cyclopses in Serpent Skull. He used the pool to drop Fire Snake like 3 or 4 times in a row, and then went on to tank to the cyclopses until the party could mop up the remaining serpentfolk and back him up on the cyclopses. He was pretty bad-ass.

Power attack: we had a bard. So accuracy wasn't actually an issue. I don't know what you'll have in your party.

Raising int score is good, if you have the money for it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Blaster: Our magus was the party's primary blaster. As he levelled up and gained more spells per day and more pool points, it got easier for him to be tank, slasher, and blaster all at once.

So many of a magus' pool abilities last but a single round that I can easily see burning through points quickly. I guess I'll have to wait and see how it all plays out. I'd love for what you're saying to turn out to be true for me as well.

Wyroot: It sure sounds nice, but I doubt you actually have to have it. As you get higher level you'll become more efficient with your pool points, and our magus didn't need them as often.

Nice. But how I see it is this: wyroot means that each confirmed crit (of which there should be a fair amount) at mid/high levels, is another round of my melee attacks becoming touch attacks. Or recalling another quickened intensified shocking grasp. Etc. It means being able to use those 1 round abilities more freely. It means not needing to be efficient.

Power attack: we had a bard. So accuracy wasn't actually an issue. I don't know what you'll have in your party.

Our group has a bard and 2 clerics. I've informed the twin towers that one of them should start thinking about prepping a few buffing spells, so we aren't in terrible shape to-hit wise, and I've been thinking Power Attack might be a good option for me.

Also, I am wondering if folks consider Bracers of the Falcon are balanced at 4000g. If so I may need to propose some custom bracers focused on melee goodness.

Edit to add: Assuming the bracers are not considered balanced, can anyone recommend a good pair of bracers for magi? I've looked through the prd and nothing really stood out to me as being any good for a magus. Perhaps a custom item of some sort will be necessary after all...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Blaster: Our magus was the party's primary blaster.

How exactly was your magus able to be the group's blaster as well as melee? Wand usage? I'd love to know, since our group only has me and an alchemist as arcane casters, and neither of our clerics appears to be focused on spellblasting atm.

 

[bapond22]

I rolled a lvl 10 human Bladebound magus after a TPK in the RotRL adventure path. I was tasked with creating a tank character because the other players rolled ranged or casters, so I thought I would share my experiences "tanking" as a magus. Our characters are level 11 now, and I'm using the following feats:
1 - Intensified Spell (shocking grasp)
1 - Combat Expertise
3 - Toughness
3 - Alertness (you get this free with the black blade)
5 - Craft Wondrous Item
5 - Disruptive Recall
7 - Dodge
9 - Mobility
11 - Weapon Focus (scimitar)
11 - Weapon Specialization (scimitar)

Arcana:
3 - none, this is when Bladebound get their black blade
6 - Lingering Pain
9 - Prescient Defense

I know these aren't the most optimized, and if I could redo a few of my choices I would. Here are my most notable observations playing this character to date (which is a blast):

- Bladebound magus gets a free kickass weapon, allowing me to spend that money on a lot of stat enhancing items which I made even cheaper by taking the Craft Wondrous Item feat. This is important because I've got to get as much boost as I can to Str, Int, and Con (Dex up to 16 for max dex bonus to AC in breatplate or mithril full plate at lvl 13). A dervish dancing magus would obviously allocate stats differently, but I don't care for the flavor of that character.

- At level 13, the armor you can wear is just as good as any fighter. But you have a few things that they don't! Shield spell, Mirror Image, Ablative Barrier, Stoneskin. There are other defensive spells, but these are the ones I've used a lot. With decent gear, which you can afford, Shield and Mirror Image spells active, you will rarely be touched. You can also refresh these very easily during combat using Spell Combat. Being grappled is a bigger concern than getting hit, but I always keep a Salve of Slipperiness (which I make for half cost) or something comparable if I know I'm going to be gang-banged by a group of giants, which also happens to be the perfect time to use Elemental Aura (electricity).

- Will saves are higher for a magus than a fighter, but rocking a low Wisdom requires that you boost it through gear or spells. With a high con, fort saves are a joke.

- I have had no problems casting defensively without Combat Casting. I occasionally have to take a penalty on the attack to auto-make the roll, but it's typically not necessary.

- With an enhanced black blade (+5 keen), I've had no problems hitting enemies so far. If there aren't a ton of enemies, I typically conserve my spells and attack with two hands for the extra strength damage. DPR is very solid, even without casting spells (switch to 2h if you don't). Intensified Shocking Grasp for burst damage when needed, but Frostbite to increase damage per spell. If your DM allows (mine doesn't), extra damage from Arcane Strike all day. Otherwise, you could take the Close Range arcana to cast Ray of Frost all day for extra damage. Use black blade arcane points to enhance damage on tough or longer fights, just be sure to keep at least 1 point in its pool so it remains Unbreakable.

- I have yet to encounter any substantial spell casters, so I haven't had a chance to make good use of the Lingering Pain and Disruptive Recall combo.

- I regret taking Combat Expertise, as I have yet to make use of it. I would have been better served picking up Combat Reflexes to dish out extra damage rather than gimp my hit in exchange for extra AC which I don't need.

- I have yet to use Prescient Defense, but I have a strong feeling that the additional AC will be very critical against some BBEGs. It is fairly costly as far as arcane pool points is concerned, but I have yet to exhaust even half of my pool in any given day.

- Though my character uses it very sparingly due to personality conflicts with his black blade, Vampiric Touch is typically the only healing I need for any given day. It's particularly useful when it crits, nearly doubling my health pool.

I'm sorry for the run-on post, I hope somebody finds it helpful.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm sorry for the run-on post, I hope somebody finds it helpful.

I definitely find it helpful, so thank you!

- I have had no problems casting defensively without Combat Casting. I occasionally have to take a penalty on the attack to auto-make the roll, but it's typically not necessary.

Do you mostly only find yourself needing to cast Shocking Grasp in melee range? I've been looking at the DC requirements of Concentration, and even with Combat Casting and a 19 int it seems to take a while to get the failure chance to drop to zero.

My current plan is to take Weapon Diligence (+3 to Concentration checks) at 3rd-level, but I'm wondering if I shouldn't be worrying about dropping my failure rate on my highest level spells, since those are less likely to be necessary to cast in melee range...

Being grappled is a bigger concern than getting hit, but I always keep a Salve of Slipperiness (which I make for half cost) or something comparable if I know I'm going to be gang-banged by a group of giants

You know this is very good advice I haven't seen before. Although I do get to add my dex to my CMD, I'm still going to be hurting due to my 3/4 BAB at higher levels, and with a d8 hit die getting swallowed whole by something would be...unwelcome. I'll have to look into carrying a salve myself, once my PC has the cash for contingency items.

A dervish dancing magus would obviously allocate stats differently, but I don't care for the flavor of that character.

Fair enough. My PC evolved the opposite way actually. I started wanting to go with a strength-based magus, but the fact that the campaign is going to revolve around airships made me want to go for a more lightly-armored, faster-type character, rather than a plate tank.

Currently I've been rethinking a few of my choices later down the line. Arcane Strike I have set to take at level 11, which is maybe 6-9 extra damage per level. The thing is, I haven't been able to come up with anything that would be better. Once-a-day metamagic seems fairly terrible in a campaign with several encounters, and such a setup actually increases the value of Arcane Strike as there'll be more rounds where it can be used, letting those little plinks add up.

I considered Critical Strike, but again...only once a day.

 

[bapond22]

Do you mostly only find yourself needing to cast Shocking Grasp in melee range? I've been looking at the DC requirements of Concentration, and even with Combat Casting and a 19 int it seems to take a while to get the failure chance to drop to zero.

Primarily, yes. Depending on the length of the fight, I may have to recast Shield or Mirror Image, which are also easy to get off. If I have to cast a higher level spell, I just take the penalty to hit to boost my concentration so that it's an easy or auto success. Keep in mind that I created my magus at level 10, so I didn't have to go through the growing pains that you are.

My current plan is to take Weapon Diligence (+3 to Concentration checks) at 3rd-level, but I'm wondering if I shouldn't be worrying about dropping my failure rate on my highest level spells, since those are less likely to be necessary to cast in melee range...

I'm not familiar with that Arcana, is it from a 3rd party source? At any rate, you could probably get by without casting any higher level spells in melee.

You know this is very good advice I haven't seen before. Although I do get to add my dex to my CMD, I'm still going to be hurting due to my 3/4 BAB at higher levels, and with a d8 hit die getting swallowed whole by something would be...unwelcome. I'll have to look into carrying a salve myself, once my PC has the cash for contingency items.

It is fairly expensive, but saved my life on a few separate occasions. Also, note that the bonus to CMD from the Salve of Slipperiness (competence) stacks with a Grease spell (circumstance) as well as Alchemical Grease (alchemical).

Currently I've been rethinking a few of my choices later down the line. Arcane Strike I have set to take at level 11, which is maybe 6-9 extra damage per level. The thing is, I haven't been able to come up with anything that would be better. Once-a-day metamagic seems fairly terrible in a campaign with several encounters, and such a setup actually increases the value of Arcane Strike as there'll be more rounds where it can be used, letting those little plinks add up.

I considered Critical Strike, but again...only once a day.

Arcane Strike seems decent, but metamagic feats are not only usable once a day. Are you referring to the magus arcana which allow once a day use of metamagic? If you are looking for a feat to boost your damage, there may be several that would be appropriate depending on your party and personal playstyle.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Primarily, yes. Depending on the length of the fight, I may have to recast Shield or Mirror Image, which are also easy to get off. If I have to cast a higher level spell, I just take the penalty to hit to boost my concentration so that it's an easy or auto success. Keep in mind that I created my magus at level 10, so I didn't have to go through the growing pains that you are.

*nod* I hadn't considered that I really won't be regularly casting higher level spells defensively. And Quickened spells don't require casting defensively. Hrm...

I'm not familiar with that Arcana, is it from a 3rd party source? At any rate, you could probably get by without casting any higher level spells in melee.

It is indeed third party, one of the third party arcana listed on the d20prd. Basically it's an arcana version of Combat Casting, but with a single weapon.

Arcane Strike seems decent, but metamagic feats are not only usable once a day. Are you referring to the magus arcana which allow once a day use of metamagic? If you are looking for a feat to boost your damage, there may be several that would be appropriate depending on your party and personal playstyle.

I'm sorry yes, I was referring to the magus arcana that allow you to spontaneously use a metamagic spell once a day. There are a couple of other arcana that also seem nice, until you see that they too can only be used once per day (like Critical Strike). I just feel like there should be a better option than an arcana that allows me to empower one spell each day.

Assuming I swap out Weapon Diligence with another arcana, that's going to be a tough choice as well. There aren't a lot of good arcana one can take at level 3. I suppose I could give Familiar another look.

 

[bapond22]

I'm sorry yes, I was referring to the magus arcana that allow you to spontaneously use a metamagic spell once a day. There are a couple of other arcana that also seem nice, until you see that they too can only be used once per day (like Critical Strike). I just feel like there should be a better option than an arcana that allows me to empower one spell each day.

Assuming I swap out Weapon Diligence with another arcana, that's going to be a tough choice as well. There aren't a lot of good arcana one can take at level 3. I suppose I could give Familiar another look.

Familiar is a good arcana, I would choose that if you are not Bladebound. You might also consider Spell Blending if there are any low level wizard/sorcerer spells that you find useful. There may be better 3rd party arcana, but I am not familiar with those.

 

[Empirate]

Concerning the concentration thingy: Kobolds can select a favored class benefit to hugely help out here, making Combat Casting moot. If you want to play a Kobold that is.