How Does "The Rules Aren't Physics" Fix Anything?
- Thread starter IceFractal
- Start date
D'karr said:
If Rules = Physics everything goes only the DM disallows it. If not then nothing works unless the DM allows it.
Or in other words, with rules=physics the players know, by knowing the rules what will work in the game and what not. If that is not the case then the players always have to guess how the DM will rule in the case and never can be sure how their powers work in the situation because the DM might "railroad" them elsewhere to preserve the story.
Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
True or possibly false. It might just be that one character in particular has the power to take people with him while others don't. It might be that this particular power can take people with him but other teleports can't.robertliguori said:
But, the idea is that not ALL rules are the physics of the world. And you shouldn't necessarily assume that since it works for you that it'll work for everyone. Some rules certainly might align themselves with the physics of the world. Others may not.
A rough example is: Say it is a DC 15 jump check to jump 15 feet according to the rules. It works that way every time the PCs try it. Jump checks are strength based and you roll a d20 plus your strength modifier. Which means any NPC with a strength of 14 should be able to make that roll 40% of the time.
Now, say you think 15 feet is an awfully far distance to jump and think that non-heroic types should never be able to jump that far unless they are special somehow. So, you make the physics of the world such that jumping 15 feet can only be done by NPCs you think could make it. Everyone else fails. Those you think can make it almost always succeed unless there is a reason for them to fail.
So, you have a set of rules that let you determine if the PCs can do something. And then you have a set of physics. One disagrees with the other, but it doesn't matter because the physics of the world don't apply to the PCs, the rules do instead.
They can base consistent decisions based on the rules and what is possible FOR them.
For instance, maybe not all Eladrin have the ability to teleport but PC Eladrin do. The physics of the world don't say "All Eladrin have this power", the rules of the game do.
They never think that because they don't have that information. They don't know what is dramatic and what isn't. They don't know how hazardous something is by the game rules. If the player rolls a 1 on a Jump skill roll for a total of 5 on the roll and the DM says "You make it the 20 feet to the other side, just barely, you have to grab on to the ledge on the other side an pull yourself up. You breathe a sigh of relief as you were THAT close to falling to your death" your character isn't thinking "I'm glad that was dramatic and the DM wanted me to get to the other side so I succeeded. I wasn't worried because that's the way things ALWAYS work for me." He is instead thinking "I'm glad I didn't die, but I could have."robertliguori said:
Thinking that they always seem to succeed anyways is what is called metagaming. Knowing that you are slightly above normal people and seems to succeed where an average peasant couldn't is normal for them however.
Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
This isn't true. Rules=Physics creates upper and lower limits. It says "Walls above this difficulty cannot be climbed by you, you cannot fly, you take 10d6 damage for falling 100 feet, you can tumble past people if you are good enough". It both gives you options and gives you restrictions.Derren said:
The other way around gives you options and restrictions as well. However, SOME of the restrictions are put in by the DM instead of the physics of the game world. Some of the options are put in by the DM instead of the physics of the game world as well.
As an example:
Physics=rules says the longer you fall the more damaging the fall. As you learn to fight better you can survive longer falls. Everyone who is a good fighter can jump off 100 ft tall cliffs and expect to survive. This is because the rules say that as you gain levels you gain hitpoints and the more hitpoints you have the higher falls you can survive.
Physics<>rules says that a 100 ft fall kills everyone. There are rumors that some people have luckily survived such a fall, but it would be rare indeed. The game rules say that PCs survive the fall every time at high levels, however. They actually break the laws of physics because they are the PCs. However, given that the laws of physics haven't changed, it doesn't mean that just because some NPC is good at fighting that he'll survive the fall.
There are still rules. If the DM follows the rules then the PCs know what to expect. They use rules to figure it out instead of physics.Derren said:
Things that need to be codified still are. Your powers still tell you exactly how they work in the game. They just aren't the actual physics of the world.
You might have a power that says "Shift an ally 6 squares and they can make a basic attack." that you can use as a standard action. It doesn't necessarily mean that your ally suddenly went into super speed mode and was able to move double the speed he normally does. It could simply mean that during his last turn he moved very efficiently. You retroactively cause him to have moved a different direction and found an opportunity for an extra attack when an enemy was distracted.
The game effect is that your ally has taken 12 squares worth of movement and 2 standard actions during a round. The physics of the situation is different from the actual rules, mind you.
robertliguori
First Post
Yes, this is a failure to communicate here. Physics describe something (generally something physical) that happens in the world. If the nature of the game world is that some characters are PCs, and have their ability to jump gaps resolved by a d20 roll plus a modifier, and some characters are NPCs, and make or fail jumps regardless of what their modifier would have been were they PCs, then the physics of the world say that there are two classes of being with regards to jumping (PC and NPC), and that they jump differently.Majoru Oakheart said:
Likewise, once a ruling is made that some eladrins teleport in a particular way and that others don't, physics are being established. "The world works like X for these situations and Y for these other situations." is certainly within the bounds of physics, as is "X in this case is, as far as we can tell, totally non-deterministic, at least with regards to what determines Y."
Physics support the idea of a world where there are special classes of beings who interact with reality in a totally different manner. If that is the way events are resolved at the table, then those are the physics of the gameworld.
Well, yes. A character that knows that in ordinary conditions, they can jump between 5 and 25 feet with a running start should expect that he could succeed or fail. A plate-clad halfling low-Str halfling (or, conversely, a thri-kreen) should not experience a moment of drama. Possibly dying is an expected result of failing a DC 20 jump check with a +5 modifier. However, the tenth time a character has been forced to make a jump check under pressure and 'just made it' or so, the character should have noticed that the world seems to work differently under certain conditions.
And observing the world and drawing conclusions about it is the exact opposite of metagaming. Metagaming is using knowledge your character shouldn't have. Your character should notice if he can't do something, then suddenly can, then can't again, and he should wonder why.
Well, no. The physics of the real world say that humans don't come in a category of 'tough enough to shrug off a 100' fall casually'. The physics of the real world also say that humanoid-shaped creatures don't come in sizes above about eight feet without massive health problems, that dragon-shaped, -strength, and -weighted creatures can't fly, and that you can't wave a magic wand and conjure up bunnies.
Obviously, the physics of the real world do not describe the world of D&D.
It is assumed that when the assumptions of reality and the written rules clash, the rules win. Reality assumes no magic and extremely limited heroism; D&D assumes copious amounts of both. Problems happen when one side or the other decides to stop assuming a set of rules that form a basic set of assumptions about how the world works. F'rex, I assume that if the rules say that a character can survive a level of trauma that is unrealistic, that I am playing a character not meant to stand within the bounds of what is physically possible here on Earth and move on. Some characters can invoke magic; others can punch through steel with their bare hands; some can avoid area attacks effortlessly even though there appeared nowhere for them to go, and some can get thrown off cliffs and bounce. If this is what happens, then this is the physics of the world.
robertliguori
First Post
Hussar said:
I see no conflict. JIT (with just-in-time being before anyone made a decision in which the rule would b a factor) rulemaking is not fiat, it's houseruling. More to the point, "Make a new rule and stick to it." is not the same thing as "Arbitrate without apparent rhyme or reason." DM fiat is not making new rules; it's overwriting existing ones.
Declaring beforehand that falls should be potentially lethal and that every fall above 50' carries with it a DC 15 Fort save to avoid death is houseruling. Telling a player with 100 hp and the ability to avoid failing Fort saves on a one "You fall 50' off a a cliff and die." is fiat.
Making rules ensures that elements in the game world mesh. A character with 12 levels of barbarian is one tough hombre; he started out tougher than 99% of Earth's population in terms of trauma and can now literally shrug off minor stab wounds with absolutely no injury. But falling off a cliff is really deadly. How deadly? Is the hurty-mojo of the cliff enough to overcome the not-be-hurty-mojo of the barbarian? Roll the dice and find out.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
robertliguori said:
Why would they expect that? Isn't it inefficient for the system to mimic player control settings for elements that clearly don't need them? All they need are rules governing how they interact with player controlled elements. And, theoretically, each other.
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