How dungeons have changed in Dungeons and Dragons

[Gentlegamer]

Are we confusing a tournament set up and dungeon with railroad?

 

[The Shaman]

Are we confusing a tournament set up and dungeon with railroad?

"We," Gentlegamer? Nah, not so much.

Hussar, on the other hand? Likely...

In any case, I agree with Crothian that an encounter or adventure that constrains player choices is not inherently a railroad. It may be simply a tough encounter. The Demonweb is an elaborate trap built by a demon lord - why would any character journeying to Lolth's lair in the Abyss expect to be able to just bug out if s/he likes?

I would argue that the Demonweb is too easy to escape, myself, if not for the fact that the various portals to different worlds are my favorite part of the adventure.

I stand corrected then. For some reason, I recall that there was a problem in using Plane Shift, but, as usual I misremember.

Yes, as usual, you did.

Perhaps Q1 was less of a railroad than I thought.

Hussar, there's no "perhaps" about it. You're simply wrong on the facts. Again.

Doesn't really change the original point though which was that railroad modules didn't exist in 1e. They most certainly did.

Hussar, I am flummoxed by your intense dislike of a game that you barely know. Please accept that I mean no disrespect when I say this, but why should anyone take your complaints about 1e seriously?

Your knowledge of the rules and adventures is sketchy at best (and that's being generous on my part, I think). You admit the game you played was based mostly on anecdote.

And yet you keep offering statements like, "The only way to leave Q1 is defeat Lloth. There is no other way," or, "Strahd and Ravenloft was pretty late in the 1e era and featured the very first creature with a class." After the number of times your misapprehensions have been corrected on these boards, do you think that a little reflection or self-doubt might creep into your pronouncements? Apparently not.

Look, you didn't enjoy playing what you think of as 1e AD&D - I think we all get that - but the game you played, under a bit of scrutiny, bears little relationship to the game set out in the rules or the possibilities inherent in the adventures that you so vehemently and consistently deride.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you repeatedly blur the line between your extremely negative opinion and objective fact, and you commit the common fallacy of conflating your own experience into some kind of universal experience shared by all.

Do you think it might be time - past time, really - to dial back the 1e hate a little bit? To recognize that while you didn't enjoy the game you played as a kid, there was a lot - an awful lot, boatloads in fact - about the game that you never knew, or never took the time to learn?

Once again, I mean no disrespect here, sincerely.

 

[Hussar]

TheShaman - I was simply responding to TX's point that 1e modules were all open ended, while 3e modules were all railroads. A module which forces a single path is a railroad, IMO. It has nothing to do with 1e hatred, which is an interpretation you are adding all on your own.

Or, are you trying to say that no 1e era modules forced railroads?

 

[The Shaman]

A module which forces a single path is a railroad, IMO.

Yeah, I hear a lot of strange definitions of railroading on the Intreweb.

It has nothing to do with 1e hatred, which is an interpretation you are adding all on your own.

Really? Didn't you write the following?

Given the choice of playing 1e or not playing, I'd find another hobby. You couldn't make me play it again on a bet.

An interpretation all my own? Please. :\

Or, are you trying to say that no 1e era modules forced railroads?

Couldn't tell you - I don't know every 1e module written, so I can't say one way or another with any certainty. I do know that with your predisposition to attack anything related to 1e, and your (IMO) overly expansive definition of railroading, I wouldn't take your word for it.

 

[Hussar]

How do you define railroading?

 

[The Shaman]

How do you define railroading?

Sorry, Hussar, but the reason I so rarely delurk on this BB anymore is because of pointless debates like that one.

I'm done here, unless you or someone else offers up more erroneous 1e claims to be debunked. Ta.

 

[tx7321]

Shaman, I do hope you don't leave. I've been lurking here a long time, and I think in general ENworld has become very friendly toward 1E (compared to where it was). I'm sure Hussar didn't mean anything personal by his comment.

Hussar, your question of what a "railroad" module is depends on who's offering up the definition. And since its not in Websters is subject to interpretation. Generally its a negative comment, so I wouldn't expect fans of any edition to want it used to describe the modules they play.
The majority posting in this thread (who are for the most part 3E or D20 players? Correct me if I'm wrong) consider railroading as forcing the players to do things (or for events to occur) without input. This is not what 1E players (at least the ones I know) consider railroading. We consider railroading to be modules that are story heavy, that strongly guide the DM to funnel PCs through pre-written events and wrapping them into a story rather then making up their own as they go. It does not usually involve much of underground adventuring (which is room descriptions and encounters). If the majority of text is story its probably a bit railroady (as the DM will want to integrate the characters on it, infact they may have to to be able to utilize the module). This is common since, if its "railroading" is up to the defintion you use.
To me its a "you know it when you see it" kind of thing.


Anyhow, I never meant to imply "All" or "None" as far as railroading for 1E and 3E (or even 2E), I was looking at the majority (I'm sure there are exceptions to each). Were talking generalizations, and roughing out the edges to be able to compare editions (early 1E, late 1E/2E, and 3E) and see GENERAL trends (which do exist). I'm not familiar with a ton of 3E modules by a long shot. But the ones I've played seem to have more story focused then the early 1E ones. And a few that I owned(which I never played and gave away (so don't have the names unfort.) seemed to be almost all story with no mapped dungeon what so ever. I had gotten to the point when I'd just skip everything and go to room 1 of the module and start the group there. This even became impossible.

Anyhow, perhaps railroad is a term that has too many definitions and is too confrontational to use. Perhaps we should use "frequently guided" instead.

 

[Gentlegamer]

How do you define railroading?

I'll give you an example from personal experience . . . AKA anecdote

A city is bordered by montains to the south. It is known that beyond the mountains lies a vast desert (Al-Q'adim). Having turned down offers to travel into the vast desert, a party leaves the city. Just as the party gets outside the town limits traveling north, the Tarrasque appears traveling in its direction. The party changes direction, heading east. Another Tarrasque. Ok, west now. Tarrasque. Three Tarrasques.

The party "decides" to cross the mountains into the desert . . .