How Essentials and beyond is a ...zucchini...
- Thread starter TerraDave
- Start date
Remathilis
Legend
Not sure I agree, as much as I want to.
Its not a zucchini. A zucchini would have MUCH more in the way of changes. Even 3.5 had hundreds of little changes (skill list, new spells, DR, revised CRs) that I don't think D&DE is going to. At best, we're getting some alternate power structures that will carry on and some monsters that adhere to current standard.
I would have much preferred a zucchini, but in light of this, perhaps this is the only way I'm going to eat WotC veggies, so pass the oregano...
Its not a zucchini. A zucchini would have MUCH more in the way of changes. Even 3.5 had hundreds of little changes (skill list, new spells, DR, revised CRs) that I don't think D&DE is going to. At best, we're getting some alternate power structures that will carry on and some monsters that adhere to current standard.
I would have much preferred a zucchini, but in light of this, perhaps this is the only way I'm going to eat WotC veggies, so pass the oregano...
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
Whinging? This is opening a can of I told you so!
This seems to be key difference in perception, and conviently we had the "rumor" on the front page yesterday.
When they say, over and over again, that the ten essentials products will stay in print and be the gateway to the game, I am pretty sure they mean that they will be the only products that have that status.
If a "hero" book and the rules cyclopedia has all the relevant material, why keep the PHB in print? Why keep the MMI in print? (The DMG is an interesting case, the crunch has already been heavily errated, I wonder if the advice will be recycled). But honestly, I already assumed people new this, I didn't realize it was news.
My bigger point though is: this is the biggest shift this early in an edition cycle in (almost) 30 years. The only thing comparable is Moldvay&Cook B/X.
I think people expected something like that here (though less so): a sort a paralel edition. But that was back when revenue for TSR was growing by 10s of millions a year. Now the market would have a hard time bearing such a split.
This seems to be key difference in perception, and conviently we had the "rumor" on the front page yesterday.
When they say, over and over again, that the ten essentials products will stay in print and be the gateway to the game, I am pretty sure they mean that they will be the only products that have that status.
If a "hero" book and the rules cyclopedia has all the relevant material, why keep the PHB in print? Why keep the MMI in print? (The DMG is an interesting case, the crunch has already been heavily errated, I wonder if the advice will be recycled). But honestly, I already assumed people new this, I didn't realize it was news.
My bigger point though is: this is the biggest shift this early in an edition cycle in (almost) 30 years. The only thing comparable is Moldvay&Cook B/X.
I think people expected something like that here (though less so): a sort a paralel edition. But that was back when revenue for TSR was growing by 10s of millions a year. Now the market would have a hard time bearing such a split.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
its dead jim...
poor little horse...
poor little horse...
Stormonu
NeoGrognard
Don't forget PonyLance. That sold like crazy back in the day. . .
Someone MUST mock up a RavenHorse product for beating dead horses....
AngryMojo
First Post
Keep on the Ponylands?
The Temple of Elemental Equestrian?
The Tomb of Horsies?
The Stallionless Citadel?
You know I've been thinking to myself as to why I've been so negative about essentials in many ways. Although my opinion has changed from not buying it at all to buying it out of curiosity and as some stuff like the mage sounds cool, I find that what really gets to me is the MM1.
All the "Players" books have been updated or won't be made irrelevant by essentials, but what about the original Monster Manual? Writing this thread the other day made me realize just how far behind that book actually is now. We have no indication that anything in there will ever be adjusted or errata'ed, I can appreciate though that would be an enormous amount of monsters.
Unfortunately, many of the monster manual creatures are fundamentally broken. Wallowing in immense pits of mediocrity and requiring considerable altering of powers and damage just to be made viable with what is the "norm" with post-MM3 creatures these days. What is getting to me - increasingly - as a DM is the concept that the Monster Vault that revisits numerous older monsters (IIRC) is basically paid for errata. I love new monsters and pretty new stat blocks any day, but I can't shake this feeling the monster vault is basically just going to make the original MM irrelevant. Bear in mind unlike other "My books are going to be uselessss" whines, this I feel is strongly supported:
MM1 creatures are way behind on maths - damage, defenses and attacks.
They are way behind on power design - Many of them have a simple melee basic attack and nothing else.
It has the most worthless minions ever - big changes to minions were made between MM1 and MM2!
It has very few viable solos in the book, who work anywhere near as well as recent ones and they are even more severely behind in maths. There is a reason half the threads for killing a solo monster with a single character focus on Orcus - he's a total chump (the empowered Orcus from E3 is better though...)
I mean if any book gets entirely replaced by essentials and the monster vault, it will be the Monster Manual.
Ironically while I will complain about that on one hand, I must state that I indeed hope the Monster Vault does precisely this as well. It's pretty clear we're not going to get updates to old monsters to new damage/power expectations and similar. So I hope the monster vault "replaces" a lot of older broken creatures like the Pit Fiend (who is just terrible), gives us viable chromatic dragons (Some need more help than others, eg White Dragons) and such forth. The things from MM1 that have been firmly left too far behind to use without major modifications.
It do concede that of all the books published in 4E, the original MM is the last book I look at for monsters now. While I know that for many things, I will still be looking at my PHB and original DMG even post-essentials.
All the "Players" books have been updated or won't be made irrelevant by essentials, but what about the original Monster Manual? Writing this thread the other day made me realize just how far behind that book actually is now. We have no indication that anything in there will ever be adjusted or errata'ed, I can appreciate though that would be an enormous amount of monsters.
Unfortunately, many of the monster manual creatures are fundamentally broken. Wallowing in immense pits of mediocrity and requiring considerable altering of powers and damage just to be made viable with what is the "norm" with post-MM3 creatures these days. What is getting to me - increasingly - as a DM is the concept that the Monster Vault that revisits numerous older monsters (IIRC) is basically paid for errata. I love new monsters and pretty new stat blocks any day, but I can't shake this feeling the monster vault is basically just going to make the original MM irrelevant. Bear in mind unlike other "My books are going to be uselessss" whines, this I feel is strongly supported:
MM1 creatures are way behind on maths - damage, defenses and attacks.
They are way behind on power design - Many of them have a simple melee basic attack and nothing else.
It has the most worthless minions ever - big changes to minions were made between MM1 and MM2!
It has very few viable solos in the book, who work anywhere near as well as recent ones and they are even more severely behind in maths. There is a reason half the threads for killing a solo monster with a single character focus on Orcus - he's a total chump (the empowered Orcus from E3 is better though...)
I mean if any book gets entirely replaced by essentials and the monster vault, it will be the Monster Manual.
Ironically while I will complain about that on one hand, I must state that I indeed hope the Monster Vault does precisely this as well. It's pretty clear we're not going to get updates to old monsters to new damage/power expectations and similar. So I hope the monster vault "replaces" a lot of older broken creatures like the Pit Fiend (who is just terrible), gives us viable chromatic dragons (Some need more help than others, eg White Dragons) and such forth. The things from MM1 that have been firmly left too far behind to use without major modifications.
It do concede that of all the books published in 4E, the original MM is the last book I look at for monsters now. While I know that for many things, I will still be looking at my PHB and original DMG even post-essentials.
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Rex Blunder
First Post
Given that they make more fun monsters now, I'm not sure what Wiz can do to please everybody. Make a new book? That's making people pay for errata. Publish free errata? It seems to upset people (for whatever reason) when free errata is published. I guess they could publish revised MM1s and give them out to free...? Does that strike everyone as an acceptable and realistic proposal?
DracoSuave
First Post
Yeah but if MM is obsolete, it was obsoleted by MM2, months ago.
That has nothing to do with Essentials.
Actually no it wasn't, not by a long way. MM2 creatures while different in many ways, particularly in minions and solos didn't change monsters power structure and damage anywhere near as dramatically as MM3. MM creatures are obsolete because not only do they have hugely outdated powers, they have hugely outdated maths in all departments now.
I can take a MM2 creature and with some ease update it to MM3. Many MM creatures are fundamentally broken - the purple worm for example - and cannot be saved by simply adjusting maths. But you are kidding yourself if you're claiming the gulf in power between MM and MM2 is anywhere near as vast as MM and MM3. It's very easily:
MM3 >> MM2
MM2 >> MM1
MM3 >>>>>>>>>>>> MM1
The gap between MM3 and MM2 is smaller than the gap between MM2 and MM. The gap between MM3 and MM1 is massive. If monster vault revists numerous MM monsters, then it means it genuinely does make it obsolete because it's that far behind. Of course if it doesn't then I'm still unlikely to ever use many MM monsters, especially when MM2 creatures are simpler to update to an effective standard as they are "closer" to MM3 standards. You can get away with just upgrading damage and many MM2 creatures will work perfectly happily. In my current experience, this doesn't work anywhere near as well for many MM creatures.
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