How far can a Human see in Starlight?

[TheGogmagog]

My original answer was going to be smart-arsed: Several thousand Light years. I can see the stars, and they are pretty far away.

But after reading the comments about shadowy illumination, I think it's actually correct and *looks out for lightning bolts* Hypersmurf may be wrong.
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Human 1 H3 <-30ft- H2
Elf 1
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Two humans are standing in an open hallway 100' away.
Situation 1: the hallway is well lit with torches, they see each other fine.
Situation 2: one stands in total darkness, the second stands holding a torch. The one in the darkness has full cover 50% miss chance. The one holding the torch is in normal lighting no miss chance. The third human is in shadowy illumination (20% miss chance) for the human, but is in normal lighing for the elf.
Situation 3: one stands in total darkness, the second stands holding a candle. The one holding the candle is in shadowy illumination for both the elf* and human.

So my answer is A human can see just as far in a starlit night as he can in full daylight, but he suffers the concealment 20% miss chance. See the terrain conditions for the maximum spot distance

In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light and of shadowy illumination for such characters.

Low-Light Vision
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

*After double checking with the above quotes, I see my candle analogy doesn't apply to moonlit** nights. Oddly enough low light vision doesn't upgrade the quality of light from a candle, but does upgrade the moonlit night to full daylight.
[edit]I just noticed Primitive Screwhead said the same thing.
**No mention of what happens in starlight.

For my poster C response, I would assign a value for the amount of light in terms of concealment between 0% (full daylight) to 50% (pitch black). And then would reduce the elf's penalties by 20%.

You could also consider reducing the encounter distance based on the amount of concealment. I wouldn't be surprised to find a rule on this but didnt see any.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Moonlight == daylight for low-light vision. To answer the question of what does starlight mean for low-light vision, we have to answer it for normal vision. Is it given as a specific distance? If so, merely double that distance. Is it given as total darkness? If so, then we'll have to rule one of the following: (a) still total darkness, or (b) as moonlight is to normal vision, i.e. concealment. Personally, I vote for (b), but as evidenced by the discussion, the rules are far from clear. Anyone have an appropriate Races Of book handy?

Off-Topic
What's a "poster C response" if I may ask?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Moonlight == daylight for low-light vision.

Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

So, we can see from this that a/ an elf can see twice as far as a human in moonlight, and b/ an elf can see as well in moonlight as he can in daylight - that is to say, bright illumination in line of sight.

Therefore we know that a human can see half as far in moonlight as he can in daylight; the radius of bright illumination is halved, so he has bright illumination for half of his line of sight. The radius of shadowy illumination is also halved, but since daylight does not cast shadowy illumination, this has no effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Off-Topic
What's a "poster C response" if I may ask?

It came from a discussion of ruling styles and their applicability to the Rules forum some time ago.

Poster A responds "Here's what the RAW say ..."

Poster B responds ... I don't remember.

Poster C responds "Ignoring, for the moment, what the rules say (either because I don't know or care or because this works better), here's how I would run things ..."

 

[MadMaxim]

Thanks, people. This I can really use.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Just based on camping experiences, not bloody far.

Strong starlight will let you make out silhouettes, but man if you're not in real clear terrain you're in trouble. You can make out outline and movement, but not depth.

As far as game mechanics are concerned, the answer is not at all. A lit candle provides 5' of shadowy illumination. A single candle is pretty bright compared to an only starlit night. A human under starlight is effectivly blinded. Personally as a DM I'd let the character make out some basic detail along the lines mentioned above, but mechanically all the appropriate penalties would still apply.

Game mechanics aside, part of the reason candlelight isn't a good way to see is because the light illuminates practically nothing and blinds you at the same time. I see much better on a clear starry night in the wilderness than I do indoors with a candle. Once your eyes adjust, you can see well enough not to walk into anything, although maybe not well enough to fight. A half-moon is enough to operate by easily, and a full moon is enough to read by. Visibility under a full moon, assuming no overhead foliage and a clear sky, is at least a few hundred yards. Past that distance, I'm not sure how elves are making their spot checks, with the range penalties.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

So, we can see from this that a/ an elf can see twice as far as a human in moonlight, and b/ an elf can see as well in moonlight as he can in daylight - that is to say, bright illumination in line of sight.

Therefore we know that a human can see half as far in moonlight as he can in daylight; the radius of bright illumination is halved, so he has bright illumination for half of his line of sight. The radius of shadowy illumination is also halved, but since daylight does not cast shadowy illumination, this has no effect.

-Hyp.

How far can a human see in daylight? You say "bright illumination in line of sight", but if that's the case, and a human sees half as far in moonlight as he does in daylight, then a human can see in moonlight halfway to the extent of line of sight. But then since line of sight is essentially "how far you can see without being blocked by something that blocks sight", that means that in moonlight you can see halfway to as far as you can see, which leads to a fun infinite regress.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But then since line of sight is essentially "how far you can see without being blocked by something that blocks sight", that means that in moonlight you can see halfway to as far as you can see, which leads to a fun infinite regress.

Well, I'm not using 'line of sight' in the game mechanics, gaze attacks and targeted spells sense (where line of sight is blocked by darkness).

Like you say, line of sight goes until there's something that blocks sight in the way. Non-magical darkness doesn't block sight. If something's a hundred feet away in the open, it's in line of sight, even if I can't actually see it because it's dark. If it's behind a tree, it's not in line of sight.

In daylight, I can see until something gets in the way, as bright illumination.

In moonlight, an elf can see as far as I can see in daylight - until something gets in the way.

I can see half as far in moonlight as an elf can see. Therefore, I can see for half the distance between myself, and something that gets in the way, as bright illumination.

-Hyp.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

If something's a hundred feet away in the open, it's in line of sight, even if I can't actually see it because it's dark.

I'm not so sure.

If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's.

So if it's dark, you don't have line of sight to a target because you can't see it.

I can see half as far in moonlight as an elf can see. Therefore, I can see for half the distance between myself, and something that gets in the way, as bright illumination.

Going from earlier posts, I take it that a follow up sentence to this would read, "beyond that, instead of shadowy illumination there would instead be no illumination, since sunlight doesn't cast shadowy illumination and moonlight visibility is predicated on sunlight visibility."

So, assuming you're standing in a desert, with nothing around you, you can see exactly halfway to the horizon. But if someone drags a 5' x 5' stone block by at, say, 500 m away, you'd see a block-shaped silhouette pass by at 250 m away.

Also, if the block started at 250 m and started moving toward you, you'd see a dark block moving toward you at half the speed of the actual block, and it would stay exactly halfway between you and the approaching block. When the block is 10' away, it would appear to be adjacent to you, and when the block is 5' away, your visibility in that direction would be zero. Meaning that, in moonlight, while you could see a creature that doesn't block line of sight just fine to an infinite distance, a solid object that does block line of sight will be hidden by a field of darkness that begins exactly halfway between you and the object.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, assuming you're standing in a desert, with nothing around you, you can see exactly halfway to the horizon. But if someone drags a 5' x 5' stone block by at, say, 500 m away, you'd see a block-shaped silhouette pass by at 250 m away.

Also, if the block started at 250 m and started moving toward you, you'd see a dark block moving toward you at half the speed of the actual block, and it would stay exactly halfway between you and the approaching block. When the block is 10' away, it would appear to be adjacent to you, and when the block is 5' away, your visibility in that direction would be zero. Meaning that, in moonlight, while you could see a creature that doesn't block line of sight just fine to an infinite distance, a solid object that does block line of sight will be hidden by a field of darkness that begins exactly halfway between you and the object.

That's the only way to reconcile the two rules:

Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination.

and

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

... assuming that we accept one can see as far as an obstruction during the day.

So if it's dark, you don't have line of sight to a target because you can't see it.

That's why I noted that I'm not using the game mechanics definition of 'line of sight' to describe how far one can see during the day.

Replace it with "During the day, one can see (as bright illumination) until one's view is obstructed by something tangible; in moonlight (without low-light vision), one can see (as bright illumination) half that far.", and we sidestep the definition issue.

-Hyp.