Just to be nitpicky: In daylight you can't always see to your horizon. If you often go to the grand canyon for example, you can see the other side on most days, but each day your visibility is different. Some days you can't see it at all. This is caused by clouds and smoke, but sometimes the air is just thick with no apparent clouds, smoke, or fog around. The grand canyon is only a mile wide. I thought the grand canyon was a good example because the visibility conditions aren't caused by smog like you find in cities. And even if you can see to the horizon on a clear day, you can't make anything out other than the line where the land hits the sky. In the D&D rules for seeing, I wouldn't consider that good enough. I believe the rules refer to the distance where you can still make things out. You can see a ship come up over the horizon if you look out to sea, but you can't distinguish it from a rock unless you use binoculars or something.
How far can a Human see in Starlight?
- Thread starter MadMaxim
- Start date
TheGogmagog
First Post
KarinsDad said:Flat plains, groups 500 feet apart heading directly towards each other in broad daylight.
DM: Ok, give me a Spot roll at -50. Nobody made it? Ok.
DM: You move 60 feet (and so does the opponents). Ok, give me a Spot roll at -38. Nobody made it? Ok.
DM: You move 60 feet. Ok, give me a Spot roll at -26. Nobody made it? Ok.
DM: You move 60 feet. Ok, give me a Spot roll at -14. Nobody made it? Ok.
DM: You move 60 feet. Ok, give me a Spot roll at -2. Finally! You guys are SO blind. You see an army 20 feet in front of you. What do you do?
The DC to spot an army would be pretty low. I can't find where this is listed in SRD, it might be in the printed PB or DMG. I dont' know if DC's can drop into the negatives. There would also be conditional modifiers (like a cloud of dust given proper conditions) that would counter the distance modifiers.
Also, (and again I can't find where this is listed in SRD) The first spot check is made at the maximum distance, a second check is made at half the distance, and so forth. So the second checks would be at 500' (-50), 250' (-25), 125'(-13), 60'(-6), 30'(-3). Unless I am remembering 3.0 or 2nd edition rules.
TheGogmagog
First Post
I'll have to check the print versions tonight, but unless it's different from the SRD text quoted in post 11, I disagree with your interpretation of what is printed. Being able to see twice as far away from a lightsource is different than being able to see twice as far in a persistant lighting condition such as star or moonlight.Hypersmurf said:The description of Low-Light Vision in the PHB under Elf, Gnome, and Half-Elf; the description of Low-Light Vision in the MM under Monster Abilities.
It's a made-up rule, but it was the designers who made it up, not me
-Hyp.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
TheGogmagog said:
You "disagree with [his] interpretation of what is printed"? Dude, next time just call Hyp a liar!
For your edification, from the SRD, Special Abilities and Conditions:
SRD said:
This was one they took out in 3.5 that angered me a great deal.
3.0 makes this easy. You roll an encounter distance. You are also given a static spot check based on things like the number of people, their size, contrast (like camoflague), and the like. There are no crazy penalties for distance.
You roll, and if you make it, you notice the people at the stated distance. If you don't, you AUTOMATICALLY notice them at half the stated distance.
I use them a lot, very straightforward. It even covers one side trying to sneak up on the other.
The -1 per 10 rule was designed for noticing things in a room and a like, not for the encounter distances.
As for the lowlight thing, they also made this easy. On these checks, normal people got a -5 to their spot checks in moonlight. Low light had no penalty. In starlight, its -10/-5.
3.0 makes this easy. You roll an encounter distance. You are also given a static spot check based on things like the number of people, their size, contrast (like camoflague), and the like. There are no crazy penalties for distance.
You roll, and if you make it, you notice the people at the stated distance. If you don't, you AUTOMATICALLY notice them at half the stated distance.
I use them a lot, very straightforward. It even covers one side trying to sneak up on the other.
The -1 per 10 rule was designed for noticing things in a room and a like, not for the encounter distances.
As for the lowlight thing, they also made this easy. On these checks, normal people got a -5 to their spot checks in moonlight. Low light had no penalty. In starlight, its -10/-5.
I would maintain the spot check with those modifiers if the party was trying to use it to spot which soldier had a dent in his armor over his left shoulder... or were trying to spot which might be the captain if he was marching with his soldiers.KarinsDad said:...
DM: You move 60 feet. Ok, give me a Spot roll at -2. Finally! You guys are SO blind. You see an army 20 feet in front of you. What do you do?
Spotting and seeing aren't always the same thing. Anyone can see the foliage around them, but only someone with a good spot check will see some of the foliage move as if a creature was crawling through it. The problem is that it always takes some DM wisdom. I guess you could use the spot check the same as a 'do you see them' check, and add a +50 modifier to it instead. Instead I'd rule it as...
DM: you see a dragon in the far distance
Player: Is it our old friend Trogdor?
DM: Make a spot check to try and find out... right now your penalty is at -40 for distance and the difficulty is 10.
Player: I failed... I make another spot check when it comes 100 ft closer.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
TheGogmagog said:
Okay, let's take this step at a time.
From the PHB, under Elf:
Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
From the PHB, under Gnome:
Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
From the PHB, under Half-Elf:
Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
From the Monster Manual, under Low-Light Vision:
Low-Light Vision (Ex): A creature with low-light vision can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of shadowy illumination. It retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
From the DMG, under Low-Light Vision:
LOW-LIGHT VISION
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
So, we can see that a character with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day, and that they can see twice as far as a human in moonlight.
Therefore a human can see half as far as a character with low-light vision in moonlight, which means they can see half as far as they can during the day.
If you only look at the DMG quote, you don't have all the information.
-Hyp.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Stalker0 said:
In 3.5, it's specifically for encounter distance.
-Hyp.
