How far can you see...or Where the @$&# did THAT shot come from?

[dcollins]

If you back-calculate the encounter distances (what Stalker mentioned above), you get something like:

Terrain (+1 Spot DC per...)
--------------------------
Heavy fog (1 ft.)
Dense forest (2.5 ft.)
Light forest (5 ft.)
Scrub (10 ft.)
Grassland (20 ft.)

 

[Saeviomagy]

Use the encounter distances given in the dmg.

For a medium density forest....the spot distance is 2d8x10 ft (avg. 90 feet) pg. 87

In an open field....6d6x40 (avg. 840 ft) pg. 92.

So theoretically the maximum starting distance for any encounter is 980 ft.

I believe this probably doesn't apply once you're high level and using magic. At high enough levels, maximum starting distance for an encounter can be interplanar...

 

[myradale]

Thanks guys.

I figure I'll run the sniper scenario and just see what happens. Realistically, they should be able to head for cover pretty easily, which is good. It was more just to put the fear of god into them anyway. I want to set up an Artremis Entreri style uber-assasin reoccuring BBEG for the party, and being shot out of nowhere might help.

 

[Storyteller01]

Yeah, I'll have to GM it fairly carefully to avoid a completely unbalanced game.
What I was most interested in is if anyone knows about how far away you can see a person. And how much detail you can make out at that range.

I mean, half a kilometre is pretty far, but I'd imagine you'd still be able to make out that there WAS a person over there with a bow, but not a whole lot else.

Using US military logic:

Standard target dimensions for a 500 meter rifle test (an equivalent distance for the question) is 4' high, 2' across at the shoulders, with a 1' square head. The front sight tip of the M-16 is not quite 1/8" across (probably closer to 1/16"). The target appears to be about half the width of the front sight tip when you take aim.

It's enough to provide an accurate shot to the targets center mass, and the good shooters can get headshots reliably. Granted, it is across 500 meters of open ground...

I realize that a bow is not a rifle, but if a rifleman can see and aim at target at that distance so can a bowman, although a rifle would have a MUCH better range increment.

 

[Zadam]

Actually, wouldn't the trajectory of the arrow be more like an artillary shell over such a long distance? ie you aim way up into the air above the targets head. Thats if a bow CAN even shoot that far, and I think would induce a much larger penalty to hit than the standard range increment ones... Basically the way I see it, the range penalty is because to you the target looks a lot smaller at a long range, but in the case of such a long shot, not only is the target incredibly small, you have to "guess" how far away they are and aim a certain distance above the target based on that guess. This would of course be a lot harder that just aiming at a small target.

Maybe force the shooter to make a Wisdom check (a pretty tough one) to guess the distance to the target, failure means they will miss regardless of attack roll. If they make the wis check, attack as usual. Unless of course the attacker knows the distance some other way, ie a spell, or they happen to know the distance from their location to some landmark that the targets are standing near.

 

[Daalbar]

just wanted to point out that taking cover vs an archer making liberal use of True Strike is not a very good defense... True Strike negates effects of cover (unless it is total cover) if I recall correctly -- though this says nothing as to whether the archer can still actually spot the target to take the shot in the first place.


oops... sorry -- concealment, not cover. Shrubbery won't help, but a large tree trunk would.

 

[Jack Simth]

Nah - just the miss chance for concealment (e.g., Invisibility); cover is a different story.

True Strike

Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: See text

You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.

Focus: A small wooden replica of an archery target.

(emphasis added)

Edits:
Now, if he was using a SEEKING Composite Logbow, they would need total cover to avoid it. Likewise, if he grabbed the Distance enchantment to go along with it (Let's see... +1 base enhancement, +1 Seeking, +1 Distance (+18,000 gp, Composite Logbow base cost: 400 gp) - longbow range increment: 110 (Base) + 110 (Distance) + 55 (Far Shot) = 275 ft; using True Strike, he can pretty much hit anything he can see, for a 18,400+ gp Item (depending on the str bonus of the composite longbow, of course)

So he also needs to purchase a Spyglass (1,000 gp, by SRD) so he can see better - perhaps Eyes of the Eagle (2,500 gp, by SRD) for the same purpose, to do the actual targeting.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Actually, wouldn't the trajectory of the arrow be more like an artillary shell over such a long distance? ie you aim way up into the air above the targets head. Thats if a bow CAN even shoot that far, and I think would induce a much larger penalty to hit than the standard range increment ones... Basically the way I see it, the range penalty is because to you the target looks a lot smaller at a long range, but in the case of such a long shot, not only is the target incredibly small, you have to "guess" how far away they are and aim a certain distance above the target based on that guess. This would of course be a lot harder that just aiming at a small target.

Yeah, the range penalties are obviously not designed to cope with that - after all it's not like composite longbows are in the same book as the rules for them...

Maybe force the shooter to make a Wisdom check (a pretty tough one) to guess the distance to the target, failure means they will miss regardless of attack roll. If they make the wis check, attack as usual. Unless of course the attacker knows the distance some other way, ie a spell, or they happen to know the distance from their location to some landmark that the targets are standing near.

Of course! Base attack and skill has nothing to do with it! Wis checks all round!

 

[Zadam]

Yeah, the range penalties are obviously not designed to cope with that - after all it's not like composite longbows are in the same book as the rules for them...

Of course! Base attack and skill has nothing to do with it! Wis checks all round!

Umm... Calm down dude, no need to be sarcastic... I'm just trying to throw some ideas around...

 

[Jack Simth]

Ok, about how far can a person see in moderate forests/plains etc?

I've got an archer/sorcerer NPC who's taken the Far Shot feat and is using a composite longbow.

He casts true strike (+20 to hit) and lets fly.

Now, the true strike counters the -20 he'd take from 10 range increments, allowing him to fire using normal bonuses at a range of 1650ft, or about half a kilometre (about 0.3 miles or 5.5 football fields)

Now, can the people he hits even SEE him at that range? Taking the normal spot rules for distance= A large object in plain sight (DC 0) -1 per 10ft of distance (-165) = not a chance anyone will see you. How would you rule this? He can hide (sniping) with a -20 to his check and still have NO chance of being detected. Even giving massive bonuses for the party knowing which direction the arrow came from, they're not going to be able to make even a DC 40 spot check.

By the RAW, if he catches them out in the open, he can just fire with impunity until he runs out of 1st level slots. Even the longest spells of the party can only reach 1000 ft (600ft +10 levels *40ft/level).

Any ideas?

Depending on the level of the campaign, of course, you may want to take Ranger 5/Assasin 5+ (for the Death attack, Full Ranger BAB, 3/4 Assasin BAB + Favored Enemy 2nd, and he gets True Strike 4 times a day + some from his bonus to Int (3+ if he uses Silent Spell on them)). Disguise isn't a class skill for Rangers, but that's okay, as he only needs 4 ranks.

Combat Script:
3 rounds to study (while hidden - Sniping)
1 Round: Cast True Strike (Silent Spell Feat)
1 Round: Fire Death Attack at an opponent.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat - a decent chance (assuming High Int; at Assasin 5, Int 16, that's DC 18 Fort save - target the casters first) of killing a PC every 5 rounds .... and staying hidden while doing it .... and having a very good chance of escaping if spotted... about 4-5 times over (hmm... enough to wipe out most adventuring parties....)

If he gets up to Assasin 7th, then he has access to Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, and Nondetection. Ouch. TPK?