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How far should Players develop NPCS (part vent/part ?)

DonTadow

First Post
Last night during game I handed a player a note containing some interesting character information about an NPC that was suggested in her background. After reading the note she said that the way the NPC was acting was not how she designed the NPC.

This kinda irritated me. I love when backgrounds are descriptive but vague enough to place them into hte campaign world, but was a bit miffed that after game I got a 2 page writeup about the NPC, even more miffed that the NPC didnt really fit into the game world. The player has also decided that since i can't (get it right) they are going to send me a another long write up of another NPC she recently met.

My current though on NPC development is that the final idea of the character-related NPC is the DMs and it should be based on a short idea of what the PC concieves. Is this too controlling? Do you even allow players to come up and meet NPCs?
 

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Berandor

lunatic
I try to go out of my way to incorporate player-developed NPCs into the game (as long as the whole game is not filled with them). The more work a player does with a prospective NPC, the more likely it is that I won't portray him or her as envisioned (during role-playing), and the more difficult it might get to find a suitable role for him or her. Other than that, my players are free to create as much as they want, up to actual classes and levels (knowing that any superhero girlfriends get nibbed in the bud).

That said, when they hand me the NPC background, I take control. So if I want to develop the NPC in a different direction that the player envisioned, that's for me to decide. Hey, Ricky the Rogue may love his sister, but when he's gone two years without writing a simple letter, don't be surprised to find out she married Dark Menace, the friendly neighborhood necromancer, and bore him two lovely little zombies.
 

BSF

Explorer
I disagree, but you do need to keep things in perspective.

I would put the brakes on a player dictating too much about an NPC that is going to have any lasting impact on the overall game/story. If the player wants to specifiy things about the tavern wench in the town they are passing through, that is probably OK. Unless of course the player wants the wench to be the secret contact for the thieves guild that has completely fallen for the PC and will gladly do anything to win the PCs favor.

Expounding on a relatively trivial NPC to emphasize characterization and create interesting side aspects of the character is just fine.

Trying to dictate how an important NPC will fit into the game world and story without some serious discussion with the DM won't fly with me.

If the player is so attached to the NPC that the GM can't use the NPC in the way you see fit, then the NPC probably shouldn't be included in any story elements crucial to the game. I would approach it that the NPC remains a background fixture. Like the wallpaper. Nice to have established, but there is no action there.

Explain this to the player. If she wants to dictate how the NPC functions in the game, then the scope of that function can only affect the PC on a personal level. There will be no story attachments to that NPC. There will be no mechanical benefits to that NPC. The advantage is that there will be no disadvantages to that NPC.

Of course, that peels off a lot of interesting interplay and potential story involving the NPC and the PC background, but that is the tradeoff.

In my long running campaign, that I play in, we have included stories about a variety of NPCs. I have written several stories myself!

We have created unimportant NPCs in many ways. Kids in the street we have interacted with and that sort of thing. Established stories of charity and compassion that say a lot about the character without having to worry exactly what the stats for 'street urchin #3' has.

We have also asked the DM if we could include established NPCs in stories. We have mentored and tutored guild apprentices, we have bantered back and forth with displaced aristocrats, we have commissioned items from recurring shopkeepers, you probably get the idea. Again, we rarely have a solid idea on the NPC stats, but we have some idea of background and personality. As I said, they are established NPCs and we see ways we can build an interesting interaction off those NPCs. These are NPCs that we care about. But they are already established and we work to remain true to what has been established while enhancing the NPC in ways our DM didn't put energy into working on.

We have also approached the DM with requests to interact with a specific type of NPC. I once knew I would not be at a session and I wanted to establish an in-game reason why my character would not be available. I asked the DM what kind of NPC might be around that I could 'deal with'. His response was (to paraphrase) 'The guy that arrived in town yesterday is an arrogant sorceror with an entourage. He isn't too high of level, but he isn't a slouch either. He has apprentices with him. He won't have any impact on the game ever again. Have fun.' And I did have fun. I established somebody that I could face down in a social situation that would take up time so my character couldn't join the rest of the group. The reward in the 'encounter' was establishing that my character stands up to bullies, could legitimately face down a relatively powerful sorceror, and that the other players enjoyed reading my story. Later the DM threw me a little exp for it as well, but that wasn't where the pleasure of the story came from.

However, there are also some established NPCs in the game that we would never engage without the DM being present to run them. Many, many, many NPCs. Given that we have been playing this campaign for over 6 years and our PCs are 20th level, we have encountered a lot of NPCs. Most of which are solely the DMs domain. In the last session we interacted with at least 5 NPCs that we would never imagine trying to dictate to the DM how they are handled.

Leaving some room for players to work with an NPC can be rewarding in itself. But the player shouldn't dictate how the DM must engage the NPC. Nor should the NPC provide any solid benefit aside from storytelling. If the player wants an NPC with benefits, she should look at using the Leadership feat, or take her chances with NPCs that you, as the DM, are building and running. There is no reason why you can't strike a balance. But as always, communication is key. In the end it is a trust issue. If the player doesn't trust you to run an interesting and fun game with 'her' NPCs, and you don't trust the player to engage with NPCs in a way that is an improvement to the game, you have problems.

Personally I think you have a right to be miffed. A two page write up is a little extensive for an NPC that isn't designed by the DM, or at least with a lot of DM input. As I said earlier, if the player is that attached to the NPC, set the NPC aside. Leave the NPC as wallpaper in the campaign world. No mechanical benefits, no story benefits. But there won't be any drawbacks for the player either.
 

Shadowslayer

Explorer
Heh... I guess it depends on exactly what you asked for.

But yeah, she's taking it a little extreme. Usually that stuff is the DMs department.

When I'm DMing, I usually just want a couple NPCs from the past (1 negative and 1 positive) and all I ask is what the PC's relationship with said NPC was. I design the rest. I always tell my guys that these NPC ideas they give me are simply to provide future plot hooks. Its never been a problem.

Although I've never had a player get that territorial over a character that wasn't theirs either.
 

PallidPatience

First Post
I think that the biggest problem here isn't the two-page write-up. It's the fact that said write-up didn't float into your hands with the player's character's background. If the NPC was such an important character that the PC had to give that much thought to it, why didn't you get the product of that thought BEFORE you wanted to use the NPC in your game?

THAT'S what would frustrate me.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
I let players design friends, family and allies (who given that most PCs are important people in their communities means the NPCs are usually also important - not quite the King but possible the Captain of the Royal Guard)

However other than designated DMPCs and BBEGs all NPCs are shared property and all players (including the DM) are able to run them making them do whatever they wish, with the Dm having the final veto. It can become a bit of a soap opera at times but thats fun and the players mostly behave themsolves:D
 

Chimera

First Post
BardStephenFox said:
Trying to dictate how an important NPC will fit into the game world and story without some serious discussion with the DM won't fly with me.

Bingo!

My world, my NPCs. You want to create one, fine. But the moment it leaves your hand, I'm free to change it as I desire. Especially when I don't think it fits my game world. Arguing with me about it is not going to produce positive results, and I'd make that abundantly clear.

The player has also decided that since i can't (get it right) they are going to send me a another long write up of another NPC she recently met.

My response: "Do not ever do this again. If you want to design NPCs and run them a certain way, then create and run your own campaign. I am under no obligation to accept NPCs that you design and am certainly not interested in being lectured on how to run them to your satisfaction. If this is unacceptable to you, then we may need to go our separate ways."
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
A player is free to dictate the past with a significant amount of freedom, so long as it happens before the NPC comes into play. They can tell me how their relations had gone with the NPC in the past, so long as the player doesn't get undue advantage from it.

However, they don't get to tell me what was actually going on in the NPCs head, nor do they get to tell me how things will go into the future. NPCs are free willed, and may not continue to behave as they did in the past. I don't tell the players how to play their characters, and they don't tell me how to play mine :)
 

Vocenoctum

First Post
If the NPC is not a pregen NPC (such as an important figure from an established setting) the player can feel free to tell me as much about that NPC as their PC would know. The player can dictate that he did this, or that, but not why for example.

If worse comes to worst, just gack the NPC and replace with a doppelganger. :)
 

Gold Roger

First Post
I love it when players take part in developing a gameworld and that includes NPC's. However, they have to do this in due time, any blanks left once the player designed element comes into play is left to me. A player that tries to tell me how to DM the gameworld why I'm doing it is just as errible as a DM telling the players how to play their PC.
 

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