D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Vaalingrade]

And look at how those legacy characters are used. Aunt May still have cancer?

Legacy character, as mentioned.

Gwen still dead or are her clones still running around? Spider-Gwen for the win.

1) literally no longer a civilian.
2) origin killed off her Peter, a civilian.
3) Alternative universe version of civilian Gwen.

Reilly used Uncle Ben’s corpse to temp Peter. Kindred used Uncle Ben’s corpse as a prop.

How is using a corpse in a disgusting, disrespectful manner making it count as a civillian?

How’s Mary Jane these days? She married to Peter? Divorced? Separated? Living together? Engaged?

Retconned out of his life and currently hanging out with Black cat using modeling as a super power. No. Really.

Don’t pretend like the civilians in superhero fiction are perfectly safe.

What?

No, seriously: What?

I said they were all being killed off except the legacies and new ones weren't being made because the writer who would create them know what the next guy is going to do. Where in that did 'safe' come in.

 

[overgeeked]

Professor DM being on point in the discussion between game and drama.

 

[overgeeked]

So here's the thing: "fridging", that is specifically, killing a female character in order to give motivation for a male hero, is so old and bland and frankly misogynistic at this point that great storytelling it definitely is not.

No one said it was. Pure gross.

In general, character death is frankly story death. Story is all about conflict, and dead people don't create more conflict (other than I guess rev-zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-sorry I fell asleep, where was I? Oh, revenge. yawn). On the other hand, living relatives can create all kinds of fun complications and conflicts that have absolutely nothing to do with mortal terror. Old debts, factional disputes, extremely poor decision making at the worst time, etc. They longer they live, the more sheninigans they can get up to and drag their adventuring friend along with. And who knows, they may still come in handy in a pinch!

There a reason The Mummy never killed off Jonathan.

Exactly. Drama. The complications, conflict, and choices that come from poking at a PC’s NPC connections. It’s great…so of course most players seem allergic to it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It’s great…so of course most players seem allergic to it.

Peanuts are great, so I snuck some into my friend's food without telling him.

Bloody ingrate started gasping loudly and distractingly, injected something right at the table, then left in a huff for no reason.

 

[tetrasodium]

In general, character death is frankly story death. Story is all about conflict, and dead people don't create more conflict (other than I guess rev-zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-sorry I fell asleep, where was I? Oh, revenge. yawn). On the other hand, living relatives can create all kinds of fun complications and conflicts that have absolutely nothing to do with mortal terror. Old debts, factional disputes, extremely poor decision making at the worst time, etc. They longer they live, the more sheninigans they can get up to and drag their adventuring friend along with. And who knows, they may still come in handy in a pinch!

There a reason The Mummy never killed off Jonathan.

Yes living characters can do that, but they are able to do that because the author has the ability to push the main character into being impacted by those conflicts & complications by writing them into the story. in modern d&d the GM can present those conflicts & complications, but there's nothing the PCs need to be complicated or conflicted by them while the GM has no tools to force a PC's hand into complications & conflicts the player simply chooses to ignore.

 

[overgeeked]

I said they were all being killed off except the legacies and new ones weren't being made because the writer who would create them know what the next guy is going to do.

And you’re explicitly wrong about that. Reading any modern comic book would show you that.

Where in that did 'safe' come in.

You’re using superhero comics as a point about D&D characters. The superheroes are the PCs. The civilians are the NPCs. In superhero fiction, the NPCs connected to the PCs are not safe. Quite the opposite. Again, even a superficial reading of superhero fiction shows that it’s soap opera with spandex. Yet, in D&D you want the PCs to have the superhero levels of action and power (and endless safe fights), but also want the NPCs to be safe. So you want zero drama in your D&D game. But say that no, you actually want drama. You have to pick one or the other. Drama or no.

 

[Gradine]

I mean, I get you, but also, not everybody plays D&D for high drama. Beer and pretzels play is kind of the foundation of the genre. You don't need complex relationships when you're spending most of your time kicking down doors, killing orcs, and stealing their stuff, and most of the rest of it selling that stuff.

 

[overgeeked]

I mean, I get you, but also, not everybody plays D&D for high drama. Beer and pretzels play is kind of the foundation of the genre. You don't need complex relationships when you're spending most of your time kicking down doors, killing orcs, and stealing their stuff, and most of the rest of it selling that stuff.

Absolutely. Some players want that. And that’s great. I play that way regularly. Nothing bad or wrong about it. Pure fun. If that’s your jam. Where the problem lies is when a player (the poster I’m mostly responding to) says they want mutually exclusive things. “I want drama, but I also want no drama.” Not so much.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And you’re explicitly wrong about that. Reading any modern comic book would show you that.

You mean like Hulk, where he's in Ironic Hell and all his side casts are chaotic monsters and even outside that, Rick, Betsy and Thunderbolt all become Hulks?

Or maybe Iron Man, where Tony basically gives out supersuits like Halloween candy?

Oh, excuse men, maybe I should be looking into the comics where loved one's corpses are being paraded around like meat puppets to read about side characters still being part of the cast.

Dude, they even killed Alfred! Alfred! And he's secretly a former secret agent who could probably beat Bruce down if he wanted.

You’re using superhero comics as a point about D&D characters.

Clearly not the point we're discussing. At no point did I mention side characters being safe. I was, in fact complaining about them not being safe. But here we are with me having my career insulted and being lectured to about how I'm dumb for thinking the characters I was complaining about not being safe are in fact not safe.

 

[overgeeked]

You mean like Hulk, where he's in Ironic Hell and all his side casts are chaotic monsters and even outside that, Rick, Betsy and Thunderbolt all become Hulks?

Or maybe Iron Man, where Tony basically gives out supersuits like Halloween candy?

Oh, excuse men, maybe I should be looking into the comics where loved one's corpses are being paraded around like meat puppets to read about side characters still being part of the cast.

Dude, they even killed Alfred! Alfred! And he's secretly a former secret agent who could probably beat Bruce down if he wanted.

Okay. Se we agree. The NPCs aren’t safe. Cool. And they are a source of drama. Wonderful.

Clearly not the point we're discussing.

We’re on a D&D forum. In the D&D section. In a thread about D&D. The discussion is about D&D. If this side tangent doesn’t relate to D&D, it should be dropped.

At no point did I mention side characters being safe. I was, in fact complaining about them not being safe.

They’re not safe because they are a source of drama for the main character. Why would you be complaining about a story having drama? Without the drama, there’s no story.

But here we are with me having my career insulted…

Did not happen. I never insulted your career. I don’t know what your career is. I find it hard to believe that writing superhero fiction on the net for free is a career. If you managed to make a living with that, good for you. If I’m misunderstanding your career, I’m sorry. It’s not obvious from a quick look at the link you provided above.

how I'm dumb…

Literally never said that.

Clearly this is a waste of time. Tschüss.