How heroic should a PC be?

[Cadfan]

But the low level monsters aren't the problem.

Seriously, kobolds will kick the ^&*% out of you at level 1. And an orc? Dear lord! Flee for your lives!

The power disparity at level one between your PCs and the monsters has actually shfited so that the monsters are more of a threat than before. Monsters you used to be able to fight comfortably at level 1 (as comfortably as you could fight anything, at least, given the swinginess of low level combat) have been spread upwards all across the heroic tier.

The place where PCs seem more powerful is in comparison to noncombatants, who tend to have minion stats.

 

[Mallus]

What's easier, fiddling with every low-level beasty to make it more of a challenge or having the option to start 3 levels lower.

You seem to be under the impression that it's necessary to modify low-level 4e monsters in order to make them challenging to 1st level PC's. This is incorrect.

 

[AllisterH]

Why the focus on the non-combatant? Worse, how can you compare across editions?

For example, a 4E 1st level kobold non-minion would tear to shreds a 1st level PC in any other edition given how people compare them.

 

[Benimoto]

I think that 4th edition sets the 1st level power level at a good starting point for many, if not most campaigns. I wouldn't mind it if a future book added "Apprentice" power level or something like that for those who want to play out those levels, but really I don't feel as though I need them myself.

For example, although my own home group has converted over to 4th edition, I was playing Pathfinder Chronicles at a convention. Characters there start at 1st level, but it was clear that the power level of 3e 1st level characters is completely out of synch with the 1st level adventures. The adventure was about crossing the desert and fighting hobgoblins and harpies, which is really stretching it for 1st level.

I just think that the starting power level in 4e allows for a wider variety of backgrounds and starting adventures, rather than the "I'm just a commoner with a sword, let's all go kill a single, enfeebled zombie" style that 3e supports.

 

[knightofround]

I think PCs should be more powerful. I play D&D to have the fun of doing crazy heroics, not some Joe working his way up the corporate ladder to get to the fun stuff. When I think of D&D I think of crazy magic, enormous Dragons, and death-defying stunts. And 4E is built pretty well for that. It's not built to simulate more realistic combat; if I wanted that I would look for a different gaming system like Gurps. I think D&D has fit into the wuxia niche quite well, and could definitely expand upon it. (Of course I'm sure much of the old-timers here would howl at the idea )

 

[Jhaelen]

I'd rather 4th edition gave us the 1st level nobody and then stated that 4th level is the default starting level.

That would have been a bad decision. It doesn't make sense to sacrifice 1/10 of the game's content for everyone just because there's a small minority of groups that enjoy playing nobodies in D&D.

I wouldn't mind it if a future book added "Apprentice" power level or something like that for those who want to play out those levels, but really I don't feel as though I need them myself.

And that's the solution to make everyone happy. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing rules for 'apprentice' level games in DMG2.

 

[CleverNickName]

Agreed! A world is not an adventure. The PCs adventure in a world. I'm not sure why this is lost on some folk. Maybe because RPG video games won't let you get to the next level until you discover the magical Sword of Xahaivaqvoeosgsga?

You can always blame it on Diablo II. It's a hack-n-slash, button-mashing bloodbath from 1st level, with cookie-cutter characters, tiered builds, and mystical powers for everyone. The story might as well be on rails, so you often get stuck wandering the desert for days until you find that damned staff.

And yet...I can't seem to stop playing it. I swear, that game is more habit-forming than Ben N Jerry's Crack & Tobacco Crunch.

(Relax, I was just trying to be funny. I don't want to derail this tread with another lame "4E is like <insert video game here>" argument.)

BTW, I think it's "Xahaivaqvoeosgsgae" you forgot the 'e'.

My bad.