How I handle LA's

[Kanegrundar]

I think I finally found a way to handle LA races allowing them for play at first level without any XP penalty or monster classes that leave them weaker in the long run.

First off any race with an LA gets a -1 penalty to BAB, AC, saves, and skill checks per LA increment. For races with more than one HD, I take the average of the hit points given per Hit Die (4.5 for humanoids since they roll d8's for HD) and then divided by their total ECL(rounding down and fractions). For instance, Gnolls have 2 HD and a +1 LA giving them an ECL of 3. 4.5 x 2 = 9 / 3 = 3. Each level they get 3 bonus hit points until they reach level 4 where they advance as normal, as well as having -3 penalties to BAB, AC, saves, and skills at level one (-2 at level 2, -1 at level 3, and then as normal at level 4).

Races with abilities that can increase in level (such as SR) have is toned back to a level suitable at level one and then increase at a rate that will put them to their normal range by the time their level is equal to their ECL.

Beyond these rules (which I have yet to fully get down on paper yet), LA races are built as normal.

I haven't tried this out on too many races so far, but other than some not being too great in combat right off it's worked out pretty good so far. I'm going to apply my theory to some more powerful races tonight. Obviously, this will only work for races that have lower ECL's (+5 or lower). I'll have to figure out something else for more powerful races, but I don't tend to allow many of those races (minotaurs, illithids, etc) as PC's anyway.

Just wondering what some of you thought. Admittedly, I'm not a huge balance guru, so I wanted to bounce my ideas off those of you that are.

Kane

 

[smootrk]

In the appendix of the Player's Guide to Faerun p.190, there is a similar method to yours to use. It does not address the HD like you do. Each 'level' gained reduces the penalties to skill checks, attack rolls, caster level checks, etc. , but the character does not advance in his 'class' beyond level 1 until those penalties are eliminated. HD wouldn't matter as much, but I think the negetives are balancing enough. An OGRE character after all should be able to take a lot more punishment before dropping, even if he is a neophyte in class skills/abilities.

 

[erdamon]

I dont particularly like it.

Lets take an Aesimarr which is +1LA. Under your system you trading:
-1 BAB (not just too hit)
-1 too all saves
-1 AC
-1 too all skill checks

for:
+2 Wis, +2 Cha
+2 listen, spot
daylight 1/day
resistance (acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5)
darkvision 60'

or with a hobgoblin:
+2 Dex, +2 Con Darkvision 60'
+4 racial bonus to move silently checks

As you can see your penalties kill many of the benefits you would have gained for the +1 LA. Such as the +1 con save hobgoblins gained for the +2 con or the +2listen/spot becoming +1.

And as you said, I dont think it will scale very well. Is a drow worth 3bab, 3 to all saves and skills and 3 AC?

Perhaps if you applied some of these penalties upfront and then removed them as the character leveled it would work a bit better. Simular to the buyout concept.

Personally I prefered just applying a exp penalty of the LA period ala http://stempel.home.mindspring.com/Index.htm

 

[Sigurd]

I think you have to ask yourself how big a 'problem' are you trying to fix. The game is focused around humans so that humans enjoy playing it. LA lets you play more powerful creatures but gives humans (& low LA creatures) a chance to make up by experience what they didn't get at creation.

Ask yourself if some of the complaints about the LA level of a race or character aren't just sour grapes. What of your favourite character with 0La, doesn't s/he deserve a chance to be as powerful?

Ya you might have to cool your heals if your Minotaur doesn't level as often as a hobbit but the grass is always greener.

Sigurd

 

[Kanegrundar]

I noticed that to, Erdamon. That's when I started to consider maybe just applying the penalty to BAB and AC. Plus, the penalties decrease over time, lessening the blow. However, many of the races I have gotten around to playtesting were able to cushion the blow via stat bonuses. Many still had penalties, but in several cases, they either still had a bonus due to higher stats or were just average with no bonus or penalty.

I can't get the link to work, so I can't comment on that.

Kane

 

[Kanegrundar]

I think you have to ask yourself how big a 'problem' are you trying to fix. The game is focused around humans so that humans enjoy playing it. LA lets you play more powerful creatures but gives humans (& low LA creatures) a chance to make up by experience what they didn't get at creation.

Ask yourself if some of the complaints about the LA level of a race or character aren't just sour grapes. What of your favourite character with 0La, doesn't s/he deserve a chance to be as powerful?

Ya you might have to cool your heals if your Minotaur doesn't level as often as a hobbit but the grass is always greener.

Sigurd

This whole thing is about LA races getting the shaft in the end. Most races with a LA end up being weaker in the long run. ECL 0 races tend to run the game in the end with the LA races (many, but not all) playing second fiddle. I just wanted to find a way that my players (since I DM 100%) can play the character they want (within reason and in the confines of what I'll allow) without feeling left behind because of a few abilities that may make them stronger in the early end of the game, but don't mean much if anything at higher levels.

This has nothing to do with sour grapes or being mad that my favorite powerful race doesn't level as often or making it harder for 0 LA races weaker. How did you get that out of my post? I'm trying to find a relatively *balanced* way to handle LA races without more paperwork or rules that end up hurting the characters.

Kane

 

[Hodgie]

For our sparse use of LAs we use a combination of methods. The PGtF's suggests that you suffer a -1 penalty to attacks, saves, and skills for every +1 LA you have. These then are removed when you increase in level. So a 1st lever Drow fighter would suffer a -2 to everything he didn't want to suffer a -2 to, and when he reached 2nd level it would reduce to -1 although he would gain no additional class levels.

We combined this with the Reducing LA rules from Unearthed Arcana (or at least how we chose to interpret them). At any point when you have non-LA induced HD equaling 3 or higher you are able to 'buy-off' one LA for XP equaling your current level. That same Drow fighter at 5th level (3 fighter/2 drow) could spend 5000 xp to remove one of his LAs. We declared that you couldn't spend the XP if it would make you lose a level.

You are allowed to pay off another LA at every 3 HD, so at 7th level (6 fighter/1 drow because one of the levels was 'bought-off') the character could spend 7000 xp to remove the other LA, again waiting until it wouldn't cause a level drop.

In this way the character endures penalties at the start of the game when the benefits are the most noticeable, and when those benefits trail off they can get the levels back. 12000 xp is never going to be forgotten, they will always have given up something significant, but at least they won't drop in power because of their race.

 

[Sigurd]

My apologies.

This has nothing to do with sour grapes or being mad that my favorite powerful race doesn't level as often or making it harder for 0 LA races weaker. How did you get that out of my post? I'm trying to find a relatively *balanced* way to handle LA races without more paperwork or rules that end up hurting the characters.

I didn't draw that from your post but from some of the complaints I've heard about LA races. I wish you luck.

 

[smootrk]

I like many of the LA races. Trying to come up with rationales to modify the ECL is another technique that I am trying to use currently.

For instance, a player wanted to play a mute mime bard drow... ECL +2. The mute thing, while being a interesting twist on character, is quite a potent flaw, so I reduced the ECL by one in this case for that player.

For another idea, A Were-rat character (ECL +2, +1 for racial HD for total +3). I created a flaw that has the character locked into the Hybrid shape to remove 1 ECL. I plan to allow the character to gain true shapechanging abilities, but only after a few levels when the Shapechanging abilities are not so powerful when compared to the class abilities that were gained in the mean time.

 

[Mokona]

The level adjustments provided err on the side of Humans. So almost all Level Adjustment creatures are worse than an identical Effective Level human with fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue levels.

There are two problems that need to be solved.

1) A spellcaster with any Level Adjustment or Racial Levels get the short end of the stick just like multiclass spellcasters. Since this is a problem for multiclass spellcasters in addition to monster spellcasters some might consider it a feature of the system and not try to fix it. I on the other hand would like all races to have some kind of effective spellcasters who aren't forced to be, as it were, fighter/spellcasters just because they are bigger (ie Racial HD) creatures.

The solution to #1 is to allow all creatures to sell off their Racial HD completely (removing all the HD, base attack bonus, and other benefits of Racial Levels). Then allow the player to buy class levels with those Racial Levels they cashed in. Some Racial HD are better than the Fighter classes (such as Outsider with Fighter BAB and all good saves) but that doesn't matter to a spellcaster.

2) Level Adjustments are very "expensive". Each level adjustment heavily penalizes many, many stats. For example a Fighter without a Level Adjustment is better than a monster with LA +1 and +2 Str because the Fighter is +1 BAB closer to multiple attacks at +6/+1 and he has extra skill points, hit dice, saves, etc. Carefully consider the lost hit dice, skill points, saving throw bonuses, base attack bonus, bonus feats, and potential special abilities. Many Level Adjustments can stand to be reduced and few, if any, Level Adjustments beyond +1 or +2 are playable.

The solution to #2 is either DM fiat or allowing the player to buy off Level Adjustments as soon as possible similar to what is noted in Unearthed Arcana.