Project Sigil How I would have done the D&D Tabletop

[Xeviat]

After watching the Project Sigil play from GenCon, I'm a little concerned. I have questions about pricing, about how maps are going to work, and about character mini creation. Will we be able to make our own maps with a robust map system like NWN? Will we be able to make and pose our characters with a character builder like BG3 and Hero Forge? Will we unlock monster minis by putting in a code in our Monster Manual? Or will we drown in wave after wave of DLCs and Season Passes?

Here's what I would have done.

1. Make a D&D Tactics game. It can be played 1 player vs the computer, with the player controlling a party, centered around epic boss fights. Multiple people could play together, and there is a DM mode.
2. Use the D&D Tactics game as a table top, with a map builder and basic monster tokens. Buying the full game gets you more minis, but you can play the tabletop version for free.

This would give people an "official" way to play D&D between sessions, or if they cant find a group. Seasonal releases of new bosses would keep people coming back. Adventures could even be released, at least for simple things like dungeon crawls (more complex sandbox games would only work with DM ran games).

What are you hoping to see?

 

[pablomaz]

I can only assume you will have to buy absolutely every single asset you will need.

 

[Oofta]

I can only assume you will have to buy absolutely every single asset you will need.

Then your assumption is wrong from what I've seen. Obviously there will be extras you can add on, but they've stated that you will have the basics. Of course I have no idea what the pricing will be, if there will be a basic free version, etc.. But they want people to actually use the tool, charging for everything even just to play around with it is not how you do that.

 

[Distracted DM]

Then your assumption is wrong from what I've seen. Obviously there will be extras you can add on, but they've stated that you will have the basics. Of course I have no idea what the pricing will be, if there will be a basic free version, etc.. But they want people to actually use the tool, charging for everything even just to play around with it is not how you do that.

I'm not sure whether this is just semantics or not, but if there's no free version... then the assumption is correct, that you'll have to buy what you need.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

So it appears that no research was done here, cause many of these questions have been answered.

Current plans are for the base version of the VTT to be free, with Beyond Subscribers unlocking more. The maps, buildings, scenery and all that can be made from scratch using various parts included in the program, along with various prefabricated maps and structures you can freely edit and take apart. A character creator for making the various player minis is also confirmed.

This twitter thread contains a decent amount of info

 

[Lazybones]

The challenge is the more complicated the toolset, the longer it takes to build anything in it. Currently with Fantasy Grounds I can grab a 2d map from the Internet and add line of sight markers and lighting in about 10 minutes, maybe double that if I want to add some cool visual effects such as weather or rippling water. Of course, there was a learning curve for that and it was harder when I was just getting started. FG has tools for building maps from scratch, but those are much, much more time consuming with an even steeper learning curve.

It reminds me of going from the Neverwinter Nights CRPG to NWN2. The first one had a tile-based toolset where you could quickly build out maps in a matter of minutes. The second one had complex 3D map generation tools and a walkmesh editor that took hours upon hours to use just to turn out a fairly basic encounter map. The second game looked a lot better but was massively more complicated to use. I put thousands of hours into the first game, but barely played the second.

I've only seen a few short videos previewing Sigil, and it looks good, but it seems like the process of building maps is going to be more like NWN2 than NWN1. Almost by definition, using 3d assets is going to be much more complicated. I suspect that the new VTT is going to be awesome for WotC-published adventures, but somewhat more challenging for people who mostly rely on homebrew. I may give it a try when it comes out and will keep an open mind. Cost will absolutely be a factor since I don't currently use DDB and have invested a fair amount of time and money into the Fantasy Grounds software ecosystem.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

The challenge is the more complicated the toolset, the longer it takes to build anything in it. Currently with Fantasy Grounds I can grab a 2d map from the Internet and add line of sight markers and lighting in about 10 minutes, maybe double that if I want to add some cool visual effects such as weather or rippling water. Of course, there was a learning curve for that and it was harder when I was just getting started. FG has tools for building maps from scratch, but those are much, much more time consuming with an even steeper learning curve.

It reminds me of going from the Neverwinter Nights CRPG to NWN2. The first one had a tile-based toolset where you could quickly build out maps in a matter of minutes. The second one had complex 3D map generation tools and a walkmesh editor that took hours upon hours to use just to turn out a fairly basic encounter map. The second game looked a lot better but was massively more complicated to use. I put thousands of hours into the first game, but barely played the second.

I've only seen a few short videos previewing Sigil, and it looks good, but it seems like the process of building maps is going to be more like NWN2 than NWN1. Almost by definition, using 3d assets is going to be much more complicated. I suspect that the new VTT is going to be awesome for WotC-published adventures, but somewhat more challenging for people who mostly rely on homebrew. I may give it a try when it comes out and will keep an open mind. Cost will absolutely be a factor since I don't currently use DDB and have invested a fair amount of time and money into the Fantasy Grounds software ecosystem.

It has tiles and various prefabricated stuff, so no it shouldn’t be too slow.
Vision blocking should also be taken care for you.

 

[Dire Bare]

The challenge is the more complicated the toolset, the longer it takes to build anything in it. Currently with Fantasy Grounds I can grab a 2d map from the Internet and add line of sight markers and lighting in about 10 minutes, maybe double that if I want to add some cool visual effects such as weather or rippling water. Of course, there was a learning curve for that and it was harder when I was just getting started. FG has tools for building maps from scratch, but those are much, much more time consuming with an even steeper learning curve.

It reminds me of going from the Neverwinter Nights CRPG to NWN2. The first one had a tile-based toolset where you could quickly build out maps in a matter of minutes. The second one had complex 3D map generation tools and a walkmesh editor that took hours upon hours to use just to turn out a fairly basic encounter map. The second game looked a lot better but was massively more complicated to use. I put thousands of hours into the first game, but barely played the second.

I've only seen a few short videos previewing Sigil, and it looks good, but it seems like the process of building maps is going to be more like NWN2 than NWN1. Almost by definition, using 3d assets is going to be much more complicated. I suspect that the new VTT is going to be awesome for WotC-published adventures, but somewhat more challenging for people who mostly rely on homebrew. I may give it a try when it comes out and will keep an open mind. Cost will absolutely be a factor since I don't currently use DDB and have invested a fair amount of time and money into the Fantasy Grounds software ecosystem.

I'm fairly certain WotC has already said you'll be able to import and use 2D maps with the 3D miniatures.

 

[Lazybones]

I'm fairly certain WotC has already said you'll be able to import and use 2D maps with the 3D miniatures.

Then the question is whether the value-add is worth having to re-buy my books and learn a new system (since I assume it would draw upon assets you have licensed in DDB). It might be; I guess we'll have to see. If they allow users to post the stuff they've created for others to download and use, that could be a positive factor. If I'm looking for a generic village and can go to a site where people have posted fifty different versions of highly-detailed, customized village maps that they've built in Sigil, that would be quite the draw. I don't think that's likely, but we're all just brainstorming here.

I know they're starting a closed beta this fall, which suggests a possible 2025 release date? Has anyone heard anything more specific?

 

[Clint_L]

I can only assume you will have to buy absolutely every single asset you will need.

Not all but most.

I’m interested to see the pricing. If I love the system I might wind up regretting the tens of thousands I have into miniatures and terrain.