How important are demons/devils to D&D?

[blargney the second]

Well, I don't know about ever.

Hrmm... I'm pretty sure Eadric wanted to stab the succubus.

 

[Uder]

I also think that you're wrong about 2e; while they were notoriously renamed during that era, they weren't really removed...

As someone who was running a campaign featuring devils as the primary antagonist during the changeover between 1e and 2e... yeah, they most definitely were removed. We got a non-apology for it in Dragon. It was almost two years until they caved and put out the Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium.

 

[Starman]

Hrmm... I'm pretty sure Eadric wanted to stab the succubus.

Wanted to, yes, but Grymar said you could "never go wrong" doing so and considering the succubus wanted to change her evil ways, stabbing her would have been wrong.

 

[Remathilis]

Hmm, no. It's not quite as simple as it looks. It all depends what you mean by "D&D" when you ask if they are "important to D&D".

Are you talking about actual game play, or game history or... ? The answers will be different based on what you choose to define as "D&D" in your question. If you're asking if they are important to my game table, I'll answer it depends on the campaign, and they occasionally have been. If we're talking in terms of overall IP identity, and/or game history, that's a whole another can of worms you're opening.

I primarily meant it as "How necessary is it to have their stats in the Monster Manual". You can answer that (as others have) by stating their importance to the game as a whole OR to your specific campaign.

I also think that you're wrong about 2e; while they were notoriously renamed during that era, they weren't really removed, and a lot of the really iconic adventures of the era (and some of the settings in particular, like Planescape) revolve heavily around them.

2e tried to remove the "demonic" element from them by giving them different names and removing many of the "real world" demons & devils. It also cut them from the Monster Compendium (re-appearing in the Outer Planer supplement, then the Planescape setting).

Granted, by the time I started playing most of the latter was out and the fact they weren't "demons and devils" was moot, but 2e really did try to remove the demonic influence from D&D IP in ways 1e (and later editions) embraced.

However, there are other streams of D&D that make less use of them--Dragonlance includes them rarely (I think there's a marilith prowling the Temple of the Dark Queen in Neraka and that's generally it in the original modules; they likewise tend to show up sparingly in other sources), BECMI didn't even have stats for them until the Immortals set, and Ravenloft treated them as the kind of thing that you should probably encounter only a handful of in a campaign--but that should be utterly terrifying to the players (even moreso than usual for Ravenloft villains or for fiends) each time.

Another good point; many settings like DL, RL, or even Eberron reduce the roles of demons and devils (though Eberron does raise raksasha's as important evil incarnates). And BECMI doesn't touch them until the Immortal rules (to keep it kiddie-friendly, I wager). While I doubt anyone wouldn't call these experiences "D&D" they do provide a very different experience than 1e/3e/4e's.

 

[Celebrim]

I guess it depends on who you are and how you play. They have never been important to my D&D. I'm quite happy with stick with Dungeons and Dragons. If I want humanoid villains, I'll likely use actual humans, or Lovecraftian 'Far Realms' stuff, or undead, or what not. Plenty of monsters out there.

I find demons problimatic at two levels. First, since D&D from the beginning went heavily into crypto-Christian, Christian inspired occultism for its inspiration, it just cuts too near to many peoples real world beliefs. Secondly, the entire concept to me risks deprotagonizing the game world and everything in it. If demons, why not angels? Why are demons priviledged to directly intervene and wage war if the forces of good are not? Surely the forces of CG are no easier to control than the forces of CE? Why only invasions from the Abyss? Why don't you encounter celestials as often as infernals? And if the servants of the gods, then why not the gods themselves? And if that, why are living humans particularly important, since the upper and lower planes could presumably sweep away mortal forces without much of a thought? The answers in my opinion are primarily gamist. So what I basically suggest is for the most part, living mortals are on their own. Whether you ar good or evil, you can't expect consistant support from the outer planes except where it has been strictly defined (as per spells, for example). If you want to take over the world and bathe it in blood, you got to do it yourself. Likewise, if you want to save the world, for the most part you are the one that will have to do the rescuing.

In theory, something analogous to demons is out there serving the evil deities, but if I did use them at some point, then I'd want to create some unique cosmology for them rather than stating out essentially the contents of some real world occult book. In the mean time games are therefore more in the Tracy Hickman mold - genies, gothic horror, dragons, wierd stuff, etc.

 

[M.L. Martin]

I find demons problimatic at two levels. First, since D&D from the beginning went heavily into crypto-Christian, Christian inspired occultism for its inspiration, it just cuts too near to many peoples real world beliefs.

And in at least some cases, doing it badly. The Asmodeus of D&D bears almost no resemblance to the Biblical Asmodeus (Book of Tobit, deuterocanonical or sometimes called apocryphal, for those of you who are having trouble finding it).

Secondly, the entire concept to me risks deprotagonizing the game world and everything in it. If demons, why not angels? Why are demons priviledged to directly intervene and wage war if the forces of good are not? Surely the forces of CG are no easier to control than the forces of CE? Why only invasions from the Abyss? Why don't you encounter celestials as often as infernals?

So what I basically suggest is for the most part, living mortals are on their own. Whether you ar good or evil, you can't expect consistant support from the outer planes except where it has been strictly defined (as per spells, for example). If you want to take over the world and bathe it in blood, you got to do it yourself. Likewise, if you want to save the world, for the most part you are the one that will have to do the rescuing.

This, of course, assumes a Gygaxian or Moorcockian cosmos of 'equal and opposite'. Worlds where good and evil act differently--where the powers of good have more respect for human free will and don't believe in solving mortals' problems for them, but only give them the tools they need to move the world--have less of a problem.

I'm aware of one story where an angel is a key member of the party, and the party also runs up against several demons along the way. The angel, however, is bound by higher authority not to do the job for the mortals, so he tends to provide aid and counsel, but only shows off his true power when up against foes they can't match--like one of the aforementioned demons, or an undead warlord infused with demonic power. The demons tend to be more fond of direct force, but are limited in their own ways--one has been trapped, one is a fallen angel who's only recently fallen and thus suffers some of the same limits as his counterpart, and one has been around so long and spent so much of his power in other works that he relies more on intermediaries, but would still overwhelm the heroes in a direct confrontation. Fortunately, the last has a weakness . . .

 

[Odhanan]

I primarily meant it as "How necessary is it to have their stats in the Monster Manual". You can answer that (as others have) by stating their importance to the game as a whole OR to your specific campaign.

Alright. Since you meant primarily "how necessary is it to have their stats in the Monster Manual", I'll take it as a question relevant to the identity of the game:

Fundamental.

That's the first word that comes to mind. Why? Because they embody ultimate, consumate evil and embody each their extreme takes on alignments. They are iconic opponents, and as such, just as James Jacobs posted above, they are just as important to the game as dragons or undead are themselves.

 

[Celebrim]

This, of course, assumes a Gygaxian or Dragonlancian cosmos of 'equal and opposite'. Worlds where good and evil act differently--where the powers of good have more respect for human free will and don't believe in solving mortals' problems for them, but only give them the tools they need to move the world--have less of a problem.

Yes, but then we get into a question of, "Are the demons and devils more important to D&D than the alignments themselves?" It becomes a question of what we are willing to throw out.

And interestingly to me, the author of the story you mentioned manages to "create some unique cosmology for them rather than stating out essentially the contents of some real world occult book". I don't think he uses the word demon or angel once in the story. I think its possible to do it right, I just think D&D has done it oh so wrong.

 

[M.L. Martin]

Yes, but then we get into a question of, "Are the demons and devils more important to D&D than the alignments themselves?" It becomes a question of what we are willing to throw out.

And interestingly to me, the author of the story you mentioned manages to "create some unique cosmology for them rather than stating out essentially the contents of some real world occult book". I don't think he uses the word demon or angel once in the story. I think its possible to do it right, I just think D&D has done it oh so wrong.

Agreed on all points; I just couldn't in good conscience let pass an example of where it has been done right in fantasy. Although he does use the term 'demon' a few times.

 

[Shemeska]

I find demons problimatic at two levels. First, since D&D from the beginning went heavily into crypto-Christian, Christian inspired occultism for its inspiration, it just cuts too near to many peoples real world beliefs. Secondly, the entire concept to me risks deprotagonizing the game world and everything in it. If demons, why not angels? Why are demons priviledged to directly intervene and wage war if the forces of good are not?

And why can't they? Having them do so might be interesting in a campaign, and it might very much not be in the best interests for the mortal world in question. The goals of celestials might distinctly cause conflict with evil, neutral, or even good deities depending on their level of interaction with mortals.

I've usually approached it with the following view: it's in the best interests of all the outsider races to play the mortal sphere with a velvet glove. You influence mortals and try to convert more and more of them to your particular moral viewpoint to swell your ranks with their souls, but you don't act in such a crass and overt manner to spark open conflict with all the other interested parties including the gods those mortals worship on that particular world. That gets messy, it gets complicated, and it risks turning that planet into a sterile husk of molten rock drifting through space - at which point nobody is going to be collecting any souls from it.

Best to leave the mortal sphere intact when possible, stay below the radar with your own agents there to corrupt or redeem, and allow those innumerable worlds to serve as incubators for the souls that they ultimately send your way.