How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[Scribble]

It certainly has nothing to do with taunting; read the rule!

And when an NPC takes direct control over YOUR narrative? If that's not magic, then in old-fashioned D&D terms it's probably "railroading". Love it all you want, "control over the narrative" in that Ron Edwards sense is not what D&D traditionally is about.

It doesn't say it's magic. If that's the only way YOU can explain it? Well- that's all you, and whatever floats your boat. If this explaination you created for yourself is causing you distress in some way... Well I don't know what to tell you.

The explaination I have, doesn't distress me, and adds a fun element to my game. Sorry yours is not working properly?

The explaination of Power Sources does say some of the things a martial character can do are well above what normal characters can do though. Which I find a good thing because it leaves room for players who want a more "mystical" explaination of their characters actions.

We can play heroes like Achillies who can tap into some greater force, that is seemingly supernatural, but at the same time not the same as the sorcerous magical arts.

Again it's mutable- and that is a VERY good thing for the game.

 

[Cadfan]

I agree that it's counter-productive, and I appreciated the fact that in early editions of Pendragon magic was entirely in the GM's hands. However, I don't think it follows that all descriptions are equal. The reduction of a power from something qualitatively distinctive to a mere "+x" kind of thing (e.g., Boots of Spider Climbing, Elven Cloak, Vorpal Weapon) may be unhelpful to the sense of wonder.

That's like me preferring the pothole on the main street two roads away from my apartment to the one in the parking lot, because the former is closer to an ocean.

 

[Ariosto]

"Come and Get It" is Close burst 3; Target: Each enemy in burst you can see.

Taunt a target invisible to you all you like, and no dice.

A target that can in no way perceive you, though, is subject to your will -- even more so with the errata that lets you dictate the movement precisely (as a "pull").

 

[Mallus]

A target that can in no way perceive you, though, is subject to your will -- even more so with the errata that lets you dictate the movement precisely (as a "pull").

They aren't subject to the character's will at all. The targets hear the challenge and decide, of their own free will, to close with the challenger.

(It's just that in this case the player decides what the NPC's free will is, instead of the DM)

 

[RefinedBean]

A target that can in no way perceive you, though, is subject to your will -- even more so with the errata that lets you dictate the movement precisely (as a "pull").

That's why we have DMs.

Seriously, exactly how many opportunities are we going to have in play to use CaGI on a blind, armless, legless zombie construct that is also being dominated by an alhoun?

The power is FINE and is a fun bit of narrative control for a fighter. It's only mind control if you want it to be.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Mallus

 

[D'karr]

For a game that is mostly dealing with imaginary situations of imaginary characters with imaginary combat tactics, there are a few that can't imagine it... Go figure...

 

[FireLance]

I know there are many who will disagree with this assessment and I will ask: What makes magic "magical" to you?

For me, the basic question is, "Could it ever happen in the real world?"

It's only magic if the answer is "No".

Sufficiently incredible luck may be indistinguishable from magic (and in some games, magic may disguise itself as sufficiently incredible luck ) but as far as I'm concerned, it isn't.

 

[FireLance]

For a game that is mostly dealing with imaginary situations of imaginary characters with imaginary combat tactics, there are a few that can't imagine it... Go figure...

Indeed. Playing D&D does not require that you check your imagination at the door. Much to the chagrin of those who prefer a literal interpretation of the flavor text.

 

[Ariosto]

Joe: How come I'm stuck with a club? A chaotic evil dragonborn astral weapon paladin should have a sword.
Bob: So, all I get is a shovel.
Joe: That's because you're a dwarf.
Bob: No, I'm a shadar-kai shadowborn stalker doomsayer warlock.
Joe: I wasn't talking about your creepy character. Billy, how much treasure have we got?
Billy: Ten diamonds. I thought D&D had lots of gold pieces?
Bob: Beats me. What are we trying to do again?
Billy: Summon the Djinn Rumi.
Joe: With the Trump of Hearts. Right.
Billy: And I thought it was the game with the funny dice ...

 

[fanboy2000]

I would definitely consider the "Come and Get It" power magical -- if I could find a non-magical frame of reference at all in 4E. It is so adrift even from "comic book reality" that any attempt to think beyond the pieces and squares and dice-rolls utterly confounds me.

You know, I'm glad you mentioned comic books because I've been thinking about how Batman can breath in space. Sure, it's a bit of hyperbole but it illustrates something important: in fiction martial characters often do impossible things that, in the context of the world, are natural not supernatural.

Batman in particular is famous for doing things that no other human being can, but in DC Universe he has no superpowers. This seems fairly common. Heroes wield ridiculously large weapons (there a thread somewhere around here about real warhammers, take a look see), fighting moves that have absurd consequences, and some people fight with two weapons.