overgeeked
Open-World Sandbox
Spinning off from the How is 5E like 2E thread.
But yeah, hit dice healing vs healing surges.
3E to-hit bonus math for full combatants, half combatants, and non-combatants. The just dropped that math into various classes. That was eliminated in 4E for standardized math. But it makes a bit of a return in 5E with not everyone guaranteed to get ability mods added to their attacks. It's not as wild a difference as 3E, but it's not the same as 4E where the baseline was the same progression and the same access to ability mod, the math actually counted on it.
I know 1E and 2E has weird daily healing, like 3 hp/day of full rest or whatever. Did 3E keep that or switch it out?
I'd have said 5e had a lot of 2e styling and finish and an only slightly modified 4e engine under the hood. The two things you mention from 3.X that 4e didn't change were feats (and even 4e fans thought there were far far too many) and the level scaling. Even the magic item issue you mention had largely changed by late 4e when, by making the bonuses transparent, the 4e designers realised that you could just give those bonuses out and then not have to give the items.
Huh. The 5E engine seems drastically different than the 4E engine. Could you explain what you mean a bit more?
There's quite a bit of 4e under the 5e hood. Not too much of it is explicit, but it's definitely there.
Okay. Like what?
Stuff that I can see. The at-will powers = cantrips, encounter powers = short rest abilities, daily powers = long rest / daily abilities is obvious. Cantrips (at-will powers) leveling up was kept. The monster math progression was figured out by Blog of Holding. It's different than 4E's, but it's still there. The party vs monsters assumptions are different, a party of five vs an equal number of on-level standard monsters or their equivalents (4E) was changed to a party of four vs one undertuned solo monster (5E). 4E builds became the 5E subclasses. Methodic and balanced encounter building was scrapped for whatever the CR system is. Skill challenges were replaced with group checks.
That's like three things. 1) At-will powers = cantrips, etc. 2) At-will powers (cantrips) automatically leveling. 3) Builds in 4E become subclasses in 5E. The rest that I listed are either changes or things that were present before 4E.That's already a bit, no?
But, off the top of my head (AFB) :
Hit dice healing is a reduced version of healing surges;
Much flatter attack bonus progression and the same across classes (though the math changed) vs. Prior editions;
Full HP after a long (4e extended) rest;
Likely more if I could track down if I wasn't on a cell phone.
But yeah, hit dice healing vs healing surges.
3E to-hit bonus math for full combatants, half combatants, and non-combatants. The just dropped that math into various classes. That was eliminated in 4E for standardized math. But it makes a bit of a return in 5E with not everyone guaranteed to get ability mods added to their attacks. It's not as wild a difference as 3E, but it's not the same as 4E where the baseline was the same progression and the same access to ability mod, the math actually counted on it.
I know 1E and 2E has weird daily healing, like 3 hp/day of full rest or whatever. Did 3E keep that or switch it out?
Some of these are spot on, others are ignoring prior editions and what they did or stretching definitions to the breaking point.Skills, races, armed combat, hit points, subclasses, monster design, a significant share in the classes. And the magic belongs to no one. 5e's just a lighter and less tactical system.
The skills as presented in 5E (and 4E) all have their own "subsystems" to define what they can do. They're all based on a d20 roll and you need to check the description of the NWP/skill to know what it does. That's not a 4E innovation.The 5e skill system is an only lightly modified version of the 4e one that gives up the half level scaling. First there are seventeen skills, plus languages- although 5e did add tool proficiencies. By contrast the 2e PHB has what? Over fifty "Non Weapon Proficiencies" in the PHB alone and more in extra books, most with their own subsystems?
Which is basically 2E's approach to weapon proficiencies, i.e. not proficient, proficient, and specialized. Again, that's not new or unique to 4E. NWPs could be specialized in even further, dropping more slots to gain more bonuses to the roll. More akin to 3E's skill points.Then there's that there are basically three tiers of training in 5e. "Untrained", "Trained", and "Expertise". Which is basically the 4e approach of untrained, trained, and a little beyond that (e.g. Skill Focus);
Which is a rework of 3E's skill system, which is a rework of 2E's skill system (wp & nwp).5e is an only slightly lighter version of the 4e skill system.
Sure.The races come next - and are very 4e in nature, starting with the obvious inclusion of Tieflings and Dragonborn in core. Two stats with bonuses and no stats with penalties for almost all races is again very 4e. As is the simplicity and cleanness of the racial abilities; dwarves for example do not get saving throw bonuses based on every 3.5 points of their constitution, bonuses to detect sliding/shifting walls, bonuses vs certain races, or racial class and level restrictions.
Wasn't that present in 3E as well?The armed combat rolls are the same as in 4e - Stat bonus (consistent) plus proficiency and level modifier vs AC.
THAC0 was an intermediary step between your modifiers and AC. It wasn't anywhere nearly as complicated as people make it out to be.There's no issue round THAC0/Descending AC
But they still do. Casters generally don't get ability mod to their attacks or damage but, as you say, armed combatants do...but again, casters mostly suck at that as their STR and/or DEX aren't going to be good, as a rule.classes having different attack bonus scaling
That wasn't a thing in 3E either, right? So it's not new to 4E.weapons getting bonus damage vs large creatures, or different weapons getting an inherently different ROF (other than the loading property).
Rolling a d20, adding modifiers, and trying to roll high enough to hit a certain number is the basic d20 engine. It's not unique to 4E. It was there from the beginning, just slightly hidden under a few layers of cruft.This really is the basic 4e engine - just without flanking or forced movement.
Maybe you've house rules that, but it's not the default. You get max at 1st level and you roll after that. 4E there were no rolls, you always just got your hp.Hit points are barely rolled for in 5e; you instead get half your hit dice rounding up.
There's three healing spells that are bonus actions in 5E...out of 26 listed with the healing tag in D&DBeyond.And the healing model is closely related, with people recovering hit point thanks to long term endurance on a short rest and a lot of combat healing happening as a bonus.
That's adding in a lot of caveats to exclude all previous examples of a similar mechanic in the game. 2E has class groups (warrior) that contain three classes (fighter, paladin, ranger). These roughly correspond to classes and subclasses in 5E. Sure, 4E has a similar concept in its classes and builds. But it wasn't a 4E innovation.Subclasses are pretty much a 4e implementation; the game is built with them in mind (and they are in the PHB) and layer seamlessly over the basic classes with simple and clean bonuses and no stat minimums or special hinderances.
You assert that's the case. You're twisting your examples to show it's true.5e being a lighter version of 4e of course the powers get rolled into either base classes or subclasses.
I'm not familiar with 3E fluff. At a guess WotC introduced that fluff there.The classes, for that matter, are all using 4e fluff. Paladins, for example, aren't going to fall and only one subclass is the morally pure (Oath of Devotion) - and no Pokemounts or normal mounts. Sorcerers have their random power sources (they were new to 3.0 and through 3.X were just "descended from dragons, I guess").
Yes, monks were in 2E. They were also in 1E and Basic.Warlocks, clearly are 4e (and were Monks even in 2e?).
Again, that's not unique to 4E and you're defining things to fit your assumed conclusion rather than looking at the whole. In every edition of D&D non-thieves could climb walls. Thieves were just better at it. Non-thieves could try to hide, thieves were just better at it.Rogues are sneak attack based rather than one off backstabs - and more importantly (and very 4e) are just better at some skills rather than having specific thief skills.
In visual presentation, yes. But not in actual mechanics. They are very reminiscent of earlier editions in the mechanics, hit points, AC, and special abilities...but nothing really interesting or tactical. No much synergized.Monster statblocks are closest to a cut down version of 4e than anything else.
Except all the monsters with special abilities in every other edition of the game.The monsters have full stat blocks - but they aren't designed using PC rules the way 3.X is. Instead they have powers like Nimble Escape that let them do things. It's more a 4e lite approach than anything else, taking away the monster roles and using Legendary Actions and resistances for solos.
Except they're not. Not even close. A typical standard monster from 4E took about 4 hits from an on-level party before going down. A balanced encounter was an equal number of monsters to PCs (but you could swap out for elites, solos, minions, skill challenges, terrain, traps, etc). So a typical fight would take about n x 4 hits, where n equals the party size. Assumed party size of five. In 5E, the standard is one undertuned solo monster against a party of four. It generally takes about four hits to take out a monster in 5E. So a typical fight takes about...four hits. You're talking about the difference between about 20 hits to end a fight vs 4. That's a huge difference.Unfortunately there are 4e hit point levels without 4e tactics making them far more bullet sponges.
The word ritual is used, but they're drastically different between the editions. In 4E, rituals were all non-combat magic. In 5E, rituals are...anything the design team things should be a ritual, with no real rhyme or reason. Some things that are non-combat spells aren't rituals, some things that are combat spells are rituals.Even the magic system, which is its own thing but probably closer to 2e than any other edition (although completely dropped Vancian casting and is very different for different classes), has strong 4e influences from cantrips to rituals to spell focuses to sustain spells becoming concentration spells.