How is a vampire possibly worth +8 LA?

[Question]

5th level vampire fighter ECL 13 has what, 5d12 hp? 5d12! A 11th level mage casting a 6th level spell 1 hit "kills" him.

I thought LA/CR differences was because some abilities for monsters are much more useful for a PC than a monster?

It seems like this is completely the other way round. Vampires should get a higher CR than LA because nearly all of their special abilities are more suited for use as NPC adversaries than as PCs.

The whole toting a coffin thing around so it cant be killed permanently.........how difficult it is for a NPC? Hell a NPC wont even move the coffin around, it will be in the vampire's lair. A PC has to find ways to do so and keep it hidden. Chalk the major "cant be killed except for direct sunlight, water or decapitation" ability up in favor of the NPC.

Blood drain : A vampire PC has zero ability to do a successful grapple thanks to +8 LA, and as a general rule ability drain/damage against PCs is stronger than vice versa(since the PCs has to seek restoration, while the main goal of combat is to KILL the NPC). Another in favor of the NPC.

Children of the night : Arriving in 2d6 rounds means you pretty much have to be summon it well before hand, and they arent very threatening at these levels. On the other hand a CR 8 vampires could use them to wreck havoc on the PCs. Chalk another up in favor of the NPC.

Dominate : Somewhat useful in combat......you can use it to dominate fighters into attacking their comrades for example, but the effect vs NPCs is far less when comparing NPCs using it on the PC's fighter. On the other hand it has potential for abuse......a vampire PC can dominate shopkeepers and the like into giving them free stuff, but a DM can easily prevent this. I think its a draw.

Createspawn : Yea, a very big no for a PC, you do NOT want an army of vampires or spawn following you around, it just totally gets in your way. Not only that but you have no capability to kill someone to create spawn in the first place, unless you are attacking commoners or such. On the other hand for a NPC this is hugely useful in order to throw an army of vampire spawn at the PCs.

Energy drain : A PC using this instantly dies if he tries to hit someone with a slam attack(which he cant, as his attack bonus is absymal), and energy draining PCs is far more effective than PCs energy draining NPCs. In favor for NPC.

Alternate form : Useful mainly for NPC disguising themselves. In favor of NPC.

DR10/silver and magic : More or less equal.

Fast healing : A PC vampire will never have the chance to have his fast healing kick in, because one hit and BAM coffin time. Hugely in favor for NPCs.

Gaseous form : Yea this is basically for vampire NPCs to scout/enter places un-observed, a PC using this will be too weak to do anyhting even if they can sneak into a monster's lair. In favor of NPC.

Spiderclimb : In favor of NPC, im having a hard time thinking how this is useful to most PCs.

Turn resistance : In favor of NPC, but since turning mechanics generally suck, this isnt a big deal.

Even the feats are vastly in favor of the NPC.

Inability to cross running water, inability to enter private places unless invited in by the owner......yea im thinking huge RP/mechanic disability for PCs.

Theres also the complete inability to do anything for about half the day.

If ever there was a template that deserved a higher CR than LA, THIS is it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

CR vs. LA is a classic argument. Keep in mind that you can't technically have an ECL 10 (PC-classed) vampire anyway (due to the spawn rule). The minimum would be ECL 13, as all others would become spawn.

 

[frankthedm]

1. You can't be a vampire without 5 character levels.

2. D&D vampires have a lot of abilities that throw party balance out of whack. 13th level was the lowest Wotc wanted vampires to even be a consideration at.

 

[Question]

Good point i missed that. But a 5th level vampire fighter PC still gets 1 hit KOed anyway. How useful is that?

 

[Wolfwood2]

Off the cuff, I'd suggest that the template could be reduced to +5 if the create Spawn and Dominate abilties were dropped. (I find those to be the most problematic in a PC.)

Personally I also find the whole 'gaseous form to coffin' business unnecessarily clunky as well. A while ago I was playing around with ideas for a mechanic that would replace it. The key points were:

* Allow Vampires to be reduced to a high number of negative hitpoints (say -50) without being destroyed

* Allow a vampire's fast healing to function even when reduced to negative

* But not when the vampire has been impaled with a wooden stake

This leads to the classic vampire-hunting scenario where the vampire is beaten down and then staked, so that it can be destroyed at leisure. Or alternatively one can just keep chopping at it after it's down until it has been reduced to -50. (In descriptive terms this would likely equate to complete dismemberment.)

 

[AuraSeer]

You're focussing on pure combat power, which is not a vampire's strong point. They're at their best when they avoid a stand-up fight. Forget about the vampire Ftr5 who would get KOd in the first round of melee. Worry instead about the vampire Wiz5 or Rog5 who remains hidden and far from combat, and flees whenever he's seriously threatened.

Dominate at will is pretty damn powerful. It lasts for 12 days if not renewed, and there is no limit on the number of targets controlled. As long as there are humanoids in the region, any smart vampire will have a legion of servants doing its work. It can kick back in a safe place and wait for them to report. Unlike vampire spawn, dominated persons can walk around in daylight and are not subject to turning.

This ability has to be included in the LA, because a PC plus two dozen retainers is much more powerful than the PC alone. However it's not included in the CR for NPCs, because the spawn and controlled humanoids have their own CR. (If you beat ten CR 2 warriors, you get experience for just the CR 2s, not for the vampire who dominated them into attacking you.)

 

[Stalker0]

I had a bard that got turned into a vampire, man talk about powerful. She would fascinate a person, walk over to them and then dominate. Created a nice little army in no time.

 

[Wolfwood2]

You're focussing on pure combat power, which is not a vampire's strong point. They're at their best when they avoid a stand-up fight. Forget about the vampire Ftr5 who would get KOd in the first round of melee. Worry instead about the vampire Wiz5 or Rog5 who remains hidden and far from combat, and flees whenever he's seriously threatened.

Dominate at will is pretty damn powerful. It lasts for 12 days if not renewed, and there is no limit on the number of targets controlled. As long as there are humanoids in the region, any smart vampire will have a legion of servants doing its work. It can kick back in a safe place and wait for them to report. Unlike vampire spawn, dominated persons can walk around in daylight and are not subject to turning.

I agree.

On the other hand, the idea of playing a tortured vampire soul struggling against his bloodlust, while cliche, is still something that the system should support. It sounds fun, so why not? (Or alternately a vampire not struggling against her nature, but still one who is overcoming difficulties in pursuit of a goal.)

That's why I like the idea of presenting a slightly altered template with a lower LA. This will allow a greater variety of vampire concepts. (Wimp who turns into gaseous form and flees when threatened has a limited niche.) If the Dominate stuff is part of the appeal, one could keep it in by altering the template so that only one creature can be dominated at any one time, thus limiting its power.

 

[frankthedm]

I agree.

On the other hand, the idea of playing a tortured vampire soul struggling against his bloodlust, while cliche, is still something that the system should support. It sounds fun, so why not?

Because a vampire that has still has any soul left should watch a sunrise before it is too late. Choosing to survive when you have to feed on the life force of others is an evil thing. Modern vampiric angst has its own rules system.

In a world where gods are quite active in drawing the battle lines where Good and Evil fight, the life sucking undead have thier place chosen.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Because a vampire that has still has any soul left should watch a sunrise before it is too late. Choosing to survive when you have to feed on the life force of others is an evil thing. Modern vampiric angst has its own rules system.

In a world where gods are quite active in drawing the battle lines where Good and Evil fight, the life sucking undead have thier place chosen.

Well sure, most vampires are like that, but your PC (for value of 'you' anyone wanting to play the vampire) is obviously the one cool dude in a million who is able to resist his evil nature and feed only on the blood of animals or drink his special alchemical potion that sates his bloodlust or whatever. I have no trouble with anyone wanting to play the one cool dude in a million.

Or alternately, it's an evil campaign and obviously being on the Evil side of the battlelines fits right in.

Either way, once we start discussing what the LA adjustment of a vampire should be we've obviously moved past "is having a vampire PC a good idea from a story perspective" and moved right in to "how best to balance a vampire PC mechanically with non-vampire PCs."