How is a vampire possibly worth +8 LA?

[Nail]

Let's say we have a Vampire Brd 5.

HP: 12 + 4*6.5 + 5 * 3.5 = 56 hp. On average.

Typical damage for an attack of a CR 13 creature is ~21 hp. Sounds like he can take "more than one hit" to me. And that's ignoring the DR 10 silver & magic. (Which all non-humanoid monsters will be stymied by.)

And that's ignoring the Fast Heal 5.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Dominate is non-abusable because a DM can account for it. You also say it like, people can actually suceed on the will save. Its 10+half/hd + cha mod. Unless you build your vampire PC to maximise DC on it it will fail. Its a DC of 18 with starting cha of 18+4 from template, for a ECL 13 thats not very impressive.

This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that if at first you don't succeed, then try, try, again. Everybody will fail eventually. (I suggest grappling first so they don't run away.)

That and the fact that you don't use Dominate on the CR 13 opponent. You use it on the Commoner 2 servant of the CR 13 opponent.

Oh and i guess you better hope the campaign your DM is running is fairly combat light. I cant imagine a vampire PC in, say, age of worms, or even red hand of doom. All those "investigative" uses are only really useful if your DM is running a campaign focusing on solving a mystery or sneak/subeterfuge.

Well this goes back to the old problem that a LA can't account for what type of campaign your DM is running. They just have to assume that the campaign is well-suited for the abilities of the monster being given a level adjustment. If it's not, then it's assumed that you just won't run a vampire.

Like I've said a zillion times, I think that LA should always be calculated individually for a campaign by the DM in charge, with the official number given only as a starting point for a campaign and class to which the monster is optimally suited. On that basis, LA +8 is a reasonable starting point.

 

[Nail]

Like I've said a zillion times, I think that LA should always be calculated individually for a campaign by the DM in charge.....

Considering you've only posted here 91 times, I'm going to assume you mean: "Spoke to my computer monitor, while I typed out this response...."

 

[mikebr99]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish with this thread... Vampire PCs suck, and ways to make them better?

Vampire NPCs do not suck.


Mike

 

[Nail]

Another aside:

Vampire Bard 5 (ECL 13) 56 hp

Human Wiz 13, Con 14 (ECL 13) 60 hp.

.....looks pretty similar, doesn't it?

 

[Wolfwood2]

Considering you've only posted here 91 times, I'm going to assume you mean: "Spoke to my computer monitor, while I typed out this response...."

Okay, okay, ya got me. Maybe not so much "said on this forum".

 

[Artoomis]

...Its not a big deal because the vampire will never survive even one round with 5d12 hp at ECL 13. Unless NOBODY attacks him, or he gets targetted by archers doing 1d8 damage...then yea.....but otherwise hes completely screwed. One maximised fireball and BAM.

Average HP = 32.5 A 3/4 value with the die first max (or the first two max) is increasingly common, and that would be 46 or 50 HP. Not a huge number, certainly, but more than a wizard, for instance. Plus each level gets a d12 more.

Average HP for a straight up Wizard: 13d4 = 32.5 or perhaps 40 or 41 with a couple of common alternate no-roll systems.

The Vampire is WAY powerful but a bad choice for an in-your-face combatant. He would be best at hit-and-run tactics using wands and such, I would think. Outside of combat is where he would REALLY shine.

 

[IcyCool]

Might I suggest taking a look at the Half-Vampire template in Libris Mortis for a more playable template?

 

[Stalker0]

Oh and i guess you better hope the campaign your DM is running is fairly combat light. I cant imagine a vampire PC in, say, age of worms, or even red hand of doom. All those "investigative" uses are only really useful if your DM is running a campaign focusing on solving a mystery or sneak/subeterfuge.

Here's the problem right there, your assuming people will play a vampire in a combat heavy setting. And as stated many times, most people won't, but that doesn't mean the vampire is weak, its just more situational. In a setting where subterfuge, political schemes and so forth are the norm, a vampire can do very well.

LA creatures are optional, they aren't like core races that need to be designed to fit a variety of settings. So play a vampire when its useful to play one, and forget about him when its not.

 

[Pyrex]

I also think that part of the problem is you're comparing effectiveness at the low-end of the scale.

Almost any template looks weak when HD < LA.

In order to be fair, you should probably be doing a comparison at HD = (1.5)*LA or so; or Ftr 20 vs. Vampire Ftr 12.