How is a vampire possibly worth +8 LA?

[Artoomis]

Would you look at that........ (Looks at "Su" tag on the dominate ability)

Huh.


....BTW, why is the caster level included in the description if it's a "Su" power?

It still has a save, right? And you need to know the DC and duration , right? So I guess that's why.

It's kind of wierd that its Save DC is independent of the power of the vampire, but that's not without precedent.

 

[Quartz]

Wouldn't it be 12 + 6.5 x 4 = 38 hp? Where are you getting the 5 d6 HD?

5d12 (Monster) + 5d6 (Bard).

And wouldn't any PC undead have that feat 'Unholy Power' (?) which substitutes CHA for CON?

 

[jeffwik]

Nowhere in the vampire template are there +5 hit dice. Hit dice are converted to d12s, you aren't gaining additional hit dice.

 

[Artoomis]

Nowhere in the vampire template are there +5 hit dice. Hit dice are converted to d12s, you aren't gaining additional hit dice.

Correct:

"Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s. "

 

[pawsplay]

Thanks to the wizards.com boards, I just noticed something... the SRD still has vampire turning to mist at 0 hp, but the MM 3.5 says they are incapacitated.

 

[Bardsandsages]

The whole toting a coffin thing around so it cant be killed permanently.........how difficult it is for a NPC?

What, all vampires don't have a Folding Coffin?

Seriously. d20 isn't really conductive to playing a vampire. If you want to play a vampire, play White Wolf games. Though Goodman Games did a pretty good job with The Complete Guide to Vampires by making it a racial class instead of a template to just slap over an existing character (though I still don't agree with the whole Inferno vampire thing). But the fact is that the d20 version of a vampire was never intended to be played as a PC. You just have to either find a product that works for you or design a vampire that fits your campaign if you really want to allow vampire PCs.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Thanks to the wizards.com boards, I just noticed something... the SRD still has vampire turning to mist at 0 hp, but the MM 3.5 says they are incapacitated.

Where?

My MM3.5 has both Vampires and Vampire Spawn going gaseous, returning to their coffin, and then being helpless... under 'Fast Healing'.

And the MM Errata only mentions a Vampire's alternate form... the gaseous-form-at-0 isn;t affected by Errata.

-Hyp.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Your arguments seem to be based around that idea that players won't be clever in their use of Dominate. To the contrary, I find that most players will be extremely creative and innovative with the use of their character's abilities.

No you don't want a permanently dominated army around, but for extreme short term dominating a lot of people at need can be darn useful. I'm not even talking about for combat. Need to get something hidden somewhere in a castle? Dominate somebody who works there and have them tell you all about the layout. Want to ambush somebody? Dominate a few of his flunkies and servants and have them slip poison into his wine then lead him into a trap. Need to establish a cover identity for a few days? Dominate somebody and have them vouch for you as their long-lost cousin.

I defy you to lay out for me an adventure involving humanoids where the ability to lay out Dominates at will won't help. No it's not a combat ability primarily. Combat is only a small component of its many uses.

As for Vampire Spawn, you don't want them for the long term. However with a little time to prepare they can still be pretty potent cannon fodder. You keep talking about "CR 10 challenges", but remember that CR is calculated for an open battlefield fighting on relatively even terms. Lost of vampire abilities give PCs the ability to do "set up work" that will tip the odds in their favor when the fight finally occurs.




Again, what a lack of creativity! You don't dominate the shopkeeper. You dominate the daughter of the shopkeeper, have her swipe the stuff, and then slit her throat in a thoroughly non-vampiric fashion afterwards. No muss and no way to trace it to your undead activities.

But that's just off the top of my head. Give me a few days to think about it, as the player of a vampire PC will, and I'd come up with something better and designed to account for available divinatory magic.

Man, Dominate Person at will + Gaseous Form at will could lead to so many great scams and tricks.

The thing is, unless you actually want the army (which most seem to agree isn't that good an idea) a Human Sorcerer, Bard, or Wizard is just as capable of using the Dominate Person spell, except that they'll have +1 Caster Level on the Vampire and the save will probably be nastier unless the Vamp is built around improving the DC (at even further. Same with Gaseous Form. So all these tactics are just as viable for the non-vampire magician. They're not quite as convinient since they take spells per day away, but the Spellcaster can also easily snag anti-divination spells like Misdirection. When you consider that without all the other penalties of ECL +8, such as the fact that the ECL +0 characters will be able to survive the combat of a normal adventure, this power combo doesn't add up.

 

[Artoomis]

... When you consider that without all the other penalties of ECL +8, such as the fact that the ECL +0 characters will be able to survive the combat of a normal adventure, this power combo doesn't add up.

No more so than the vampire. Or did you miss the fact that they have more hit points (or at least as many) as a straight wizard or sorceror? Plus DR , fast healing and just as many magic items to help out, of course. And, naturally, very likely the feat that let's them substitute Cha for Con for bonus hit points. Note the Cha is +4. An extra 2 points per hit die won't hurt any!

 

[Grog]

Yeah, average vampire HP at 5th level is going to be 38. Maybe not quite bad enough to get one-shotted when you factor in the DR, but most CR 13 enemies will two-shot this character with ease.

I'm really not seeing anything a 5th level vampire character can do that a 13th level standard race character can't do much better. 5th level vampire wizard? That's a joke vs. CR 13 encounters. What's a 5d6 Fireball going to do to CR 13 monsters? Sure, he could cast Haste or something and buff the party, which is useful, but a 13th level human wizard could do the same and lots more (and better) things besides.

For non-combat situations, again, the 13th level human wizard is going to have a lot more options. The 5th level vampire wizard is basically useless against anything he can't dominate. The human wizard can select from a large number of spells to complete whatever task he needs to complete.

Vampire PCs are a joke. However, I don't really see that as a huge problem since the vampire template is mainly for enemies IMO. If your players really want to play vampires, D&D is a poor choice for a system to use.