How is a vampire possibly worth +8 LA?

[Grog]

A few things:

A vampire gets a +6 bonus to Strength. This means an extra +3 to attack and +3 to damage rolls. Assume for the sake of arguement the base 5th level creature is a fighter and already had a strength 16. You now have a creature with a Strength 22. Put a Greatsword in his hand and without any feats he's doing 2d6+9 damage on a successful hit, and has a +11 to his attack roll.

And only one attack per round. And 8 less BAB, which makes his attack bonus a net 5 lower. Sure, 2d6+9 per hit without equipment is nice, but it means nothing if the vampire can't hit anything. Also, the standard-race fighter we're comparing him to could simply Power Attack for 5 points, making his attack bonus equal to the vampire's, but doing 2d6+14 damage, with two other swings after the first for the potential for even more damage. Advantage: Standard-race fighter.

Add to this that this fighter has a Natural Armor bonus of +6 and a Dex bonus of +4. Assume his base Dex was only 14. As a vampire it becomes an 18. Before you even put any armor on him his AC is 20! Oh, wait, he gets the Dodge feat for free. So his AC against a single opponenet would be 21.

The +6 Natural Armor is a nice bonus, and I'd forgotten about that one. But as for the Dex, lots of fighters go for full plate, which means Dex isn't really an issue. All you need is a 12 Dex, which is easy to get.

A vampire properly designed and equipped is a deadly PC as a fighter. Maybe he doesn't have as many hit points as a 13th level fighter, but he's automatically healing 5 a round anyway.

No, he's not deadly. He's useless because he only gets one attack compared to three for a standard-race fighter, and he can't even hit anything with his one attack. And as for soaking hits, sure he's harder to hit than the standard-race fighter, but once he does get hit, he's going down in a hurry. A 13th level fighter with a 20 Con (perfectly feasible at that level) will have 141 hit points to the vampire's 38.

And healing 5 hit points per round is pretty much insignificant at 13th level. And don't forget that the vampire can't be healed in combat unless the party has a neutral or evil cleric willing to memorize Inflict spells (and thus be worse at healing the rest of the party).

Not to mention that, against intelligent foes, the vampire's hit points won't even be an issue, since they'll ignore the guy who's waving the sword in their faces ineffectually and go after the rest of the party members, the ones who are actually a threat.

 

[Grog]

Now.. a Vampire.. with 12+ 4*6,5 HD = 48 hp

Check your math.

 

[KuKu]

So out of curiosity I built 2 monks. I'm not the best at building optimized characters, but here's the stats (used PCGen for what it is worth, 28 point buy, 110000gp.):

Melee Monk, Male Dwarf Monk13 CR 13; HD (13d8)+39; hp 107; Init +4 (+4 Dex, +0 Misc); Spd Walk 60'; AC 26 (flatfooted 22, touch 21), SA: +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type, +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids, +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells, Abundant Step (Su) ~ 1/day, AC Bonus (Ex), Diamond Body (Su) ~ Immune to poisons, Diamond Soul (Ex), Fast Movement (Ex), Flurry of Blows (Ex), Improved Evasion (Ex) ~ No damage on successful save, half damage on failed save, Ki Strike (Su) ~ (Magic, Lawful), Purity of Body (Ex) ~ Immune to natural diseases, Slow Fall (Ex) ~ 60 ft, Stability ~ +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground, Still Mind (Ex) ~ +2 save vs. enchantment, Stonecunning ~ +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, can also intuit depth, sensing approximate depth underground, Stunning Fist 13/day (DC 18), Wholeness of Body (Su) ~ 26 hp/day; Vision: Darkvision (60'), Normal AL: LG; Sv: Fort +14, Ref +15, Will +13; STR 23, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 6
Skills and Feats: Jump +18; Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Possessions: 1 Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, 1 Gloves of Dexterity +4, 1 Belt of Giant Strength +4, 1 Bracers of Armor +5, 1 Cloak of Resistance +3, 1 Ring of Protection +3
Innate: Dimension Door
Unarmed Attack: +18/+13 2d6+8

--------------------------
Vampire Monk: Male Elf Monk5 ; CR 7; Medium RACETYPE ; HD (5d12); hp 40; Init +11; Spd Walk 40'; AC 35, touch 24, flat-footed 28, Base Atk +3; Grp+12; Atk: +14 (1d6+11/20/x2, *Slam ) or ; Full Atk: +14 (1d6+11/20/x2, *Slam ) or ; SA +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects, AC Bonus (Ex), Alternate Form (Su) ~ can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action, An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it, Blood Drain (Ex) ~ drains blood from a grabbed opponent dealing 1d4 point of Constitution damage each round it maintains a hold, Children of the Night (Su) ~ command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action, Create Spawn (Su) ~ A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial, Dominate (Su) ~ crush an opponent’s will just by looking into their eyes (DC 11 Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence), Energy Drain (Su) ~ creatures hit by a slam attack (or any other natural weapon) gain two negative levels, Evasion (Ex) ~ No damage instead of half damage on successful save, Fast Healing (Ex) ~ 5, Fast Movement (Ex), Flurry of Blows (Ex), Gaseous Form (Su) ~ as a standard action, can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 6th) but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability, Immunity to magic sleep effects, Ki Strike (Su) ~ (Magic), Purity of Body (Ex) ~ Immune to natural diseases, Resistance to Cold (Ex) ~ 10, Resistance to Electricity (Ex) ~ 10, Slow Fall (Ex) ~ 20 ft, Spider Climb (Ex) ~ may climb on stone surfaces as though using the Spider Climb spell, Still Mind (Ex) ~ +2 save vs. enchantment, Stunning Fist 5/day (DC 15), Turn Resistance (Ex) ~ 4; SQ: Low-light, Normal; AL: LE; SV Fort +7, Ref +16, Will +10; STR 28, DEX 25, CON *, INT 11, WIS 16, CHA 12 STR 28, DEX 25, CON *, INT 11, WIS 16, CHA 12 .
Skills and Feats: Bluff +9, Hide +15, Jump +13, Listen +13, Move Silently +15, Search +8, Sense Motive +11, Spot +13; Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike).
Possessions: Amulet of Mighty Fists +2; Ring of Protection +3; Belt of Giant Strength +4; Bracers of Armor +5; Cloak of Resistance +3; Gloves of Dexterity +4; Slam;
Unarmed attack +15 1d8+11 and Energy Drain

So hmmm. Hitpoints less than half, but an AC 9 higher. Average about 14 damage slightly more often, or 15 damage and energy drain less often. Saves Except for fotitude its a wash, and as has been said he's immune to most of that fortitude save stuff. DR and energy effects favor the vampire. Differences in special abilities.
Seems viable to me, if played with a bit of caution.
-cpd

You changed races and starting stats? How are we supposed to compare these? It is hard to follow what is changed from one to the next or where different bonuses are coming from and whether or not they are correct because of that. Maybe they could be made with the same starting stats and same race which would likely be human for ease of use. Also if the non-vampire monk picks up improved natural weapon with one of his feats above what the vampire gets then his damage will be 3d6 versus the vampires 1d8 for strikes which makes up for the change in damage and also the full attack spread while flurrying would be +14/+14 for the vampire and +18/+18/+18/+13 for the non-vampire monk using your numbers. Negative levels are very mean and could help to balance those attack spreads but it is only applied once per round at most.

 

[Stalker0]

You all are forgetting a huge HUGE detail of a vampire fighter, they do level drain!! If I hit you once, I instantly get 10 more hp, and my AC and DR effectively go up by 2 against the guy I'm fighting. A few level drains, and his will save is in the toilet, so I now dominate him.

A vampires hp is low its true....but DR makes up for a lot of that, as its DR your not going to bypass often. Combine that with the temp hp he gets when he makes an attack, and FH 5 every round, the guy can take some punishment.

Its true, the guy is vunerable to fireballs and such, but so are wizards...he can start acquiring fire and lightning energy resistance items to help cover that weakness.

But everytime my group has fought a vampire, its not the damage they do you care about, its the 2 negative levels, that's a huge hurt.

 

[IcyCool]

You changed races and starting stats? How are we supposed to compare these?

Stats are 28 point buy. Dwarf is a potent race. For a vampire, it is less so. Going with Elf is a nice little boost, as the vamp gets to ignore their biggest drawback, -2 Con.

It is hard to follow what is changed from one to the next or where different bonuses are coming from and whether or not they are correct because of that.

Agreed. Some line breaks, for example, would much improve readability.

Maybe they could be made with the same starting stats and same race which would likely be human for ease of use. Also if the non-vampire monk picks up improved natural weapon with one of his feats above what the vampire gets then his damage will be 3d6 versus the vampires 1d8 for strikes which makes up for the change in damage and also the full attack spread while flurrying would be +14/+14 for the vampire and +18/+18/+18/+13 for the non-vampire monk using your numbers. Negative levels are very mean and could help to balance those attack spreads but it is only applied once per round at most.

It might be nice to avoid the controversy that Monks and Improved Natural Attack generates.

 

[KuKu]

Stats are 28 point buy. Dwarf is a potent race. For a vampire, it is less so. Going with Elf is a nice little boost, as the vamp gets to ignore their biggest drawback, -2 Con.



Agreed. Some line breaks, for example, would much improve readability.



It might be nice to avoid the controversy that Monks and Improved Natural Attack generates.

I know how that statistics were generated and why the races were chosen but changing them from one build to the next means that we have even more variables to compare which makes the whole process very bad. We do not know exactly what the statistics started at however nor where the points for leveling went. Plus if the elf is assumed to have started at 6 con or so because he would eventually become a vampire how did he even survive the low levels? Leaving as much as possible the same would allow for a much better comparison. Some people feel that some races are better than others anyway so it is just better to pick one race that is ok at both jobs and go from there. As for the controversy though people argue about basic rules on this board all of the time so it should be easy enough to put a qualifier into the post stating that the build is made assuming that it works and if someone believes otherwise they are free to remake the build as they see fit. I mentioned it because it makes the damages for each hit roughly the same and it gets around some strange feat choices that were there.

 

[Grog]

You all are forgetting a huge HUGE detail of a vampire fighter, they do level drain!! If I hit you once, I instantly get 10 more hp, and my AC and DR effectively go up by 2 against the guy I'm fighting. A few level drains, and his will save is in the toilet, so I now dominate him.

Vampires inflict negative levels only if they hit with an unarmed attack. The vampire's attack bonus is abysmal already - if you take away the bonus from a magical weapon, he's not going to be able to hit anything to inflict the negative levels.

The vampire fighter will have +5 BAB, maybe +7 or so from Strength, giving him a +12 to hit with his slam attack. CR 13 monsters have ACs in, what, the 25-30 range or so? So the vampire will only hit with one out of every four slam attacks. If you boost his Strength a bit, he'll be hitting one out of every three times. So on average, it takes him 3-4 rounds to inflict two negative levels on his opponent. Compare that to the amount of damage a 13th level fighter could dish out to the same opponent over the same amount of time, and factor in that most 3.x combats don't last much longer than that anyway....

Doesn't look so good to me anymore.

And all this is assuming that the vampire is fighting something that's affected by energy drain. If he's up against undead, constructs, or anyone with a Death Ward up, he's screwed.

A vampires hp is low its true....but DR makes up for a lot of that, as its DR your not going to bypass often.

CR 13 monsters, at least the meele types, hit for a lot more than 10 points of damage a shot.

 

[IcyCool]

I mentioned it because it makes the damages for each hit roughly the same and it gets around some strange feat choices that were there.

Strange feat choices?

 

[KuKu]

Strange feat choices?

Definately. He chose Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, and Power Attack as his feats from his hit dice. These tend to rely on having high damage, high bab, high to hit, reach, or some combination. The monk presented there doesnt really have many ways to take advantage of any of them. Upping the damage that he deals seems like a good plan. Upping the save dc on his stunning fist would also seem like a good plan. Oh and there is also the issue of the vampire being automatically turned/rebuked by any cleric of his equivalent level even if that cleric has a charisma of 1 assuming that they have extra turning or something.

 

[Malum]

Ok so my question is what is the min LA for a Vampire Lord?

Malum