How is a vampire possibly worth +8 LA?

[IcyCool]

Definately. He chose Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, and Power Attack as his feats from his hit dice. These tend to rely on having high damage, high bab, high to hit, reach, or some combination. The monk presented there doesnt really have many ways to take advantage of any of them. Upping the damage that he deals seems like a good plan. Upping the save dc on his stunning fist would also seem like a good plan. Oh and there is also the issue of the vampire being automatically turned/rebuked by any cleric of his equivalent level even if that cleric has a charisma of 1 assuming that they have extra turning or something.

I suppose I could see Cleave and Improved Bull Rush being considered strange, but Improved Grapple and Power attack? Those are staples for a monk. Want to improve your damage? Power Attack. And Improved Grapple is a big benefit for a monk.

 

[Artoomis]

I suppose I could see Cleave and Improved Bull Rush being considered strange, but Improved Grapple and Power attack? Those are staples for a monk. Want to improve your damage? Power Attack. And Improved Grapple is a big benefit for a monk.

Actually, I've always run a monk for maximum maneuverability and defense. I've run him as if his job is to get past the front-line defense and go for the soft underbelly in the back. And get out again in one piece!

Hmm.. maybe, just maybe, I'll write up a monk and monk/vampire. I have PCGen, but it still takes some time...

It would be intersting to see the difference at ECL13 and 20. The vampire gets a LOT but gives up a LOT.

 

[IcyCool]

At ECL 13, the Vampire is pretty fragile. I don't think anyone has denied that. At ECL 20, I think the difference is much less dramatic.

 

[Grog]

At ECL 13, the Vampire is pretty fragile. I don't think anyone has denied that. At ECL 20, I think the difference is much less dramatic.

Well, let's see. The vamp's hit points at 20th level will be 12d12, 84 average. A human fighter with a 24 Con (perfectly feasible for a 20th level fighter, in fact it might be a bit conservative) will have 20d10+140 hit points, 255 average. The vamp's extra AC will help, but his DR is going to be worth less and less as monsters start hitting for more and more damage.

As for offense, no matter how you slice it, the vamp is always going to be down 8 points of BAB. And he gets +6 Str, but compared to a human fighter, it's really only +4, since the human fighter gets two extra stat increases from levels over the vampire. Assuming the human fighter puts them in Strength (he could put them somewhere else and gain some other benefit), this means the vampire will be at -6 to hit compared to the human fighter and have only three attacks to the human's four.

And as for the vampire's energy drain ability? He might as well not even have it. With a 32 Strength, he'll have a +23 bonus to hit while unarmed. Good luck hitting CR 20 monsters with 40+ ACs with that attack bonus. He'll have a hard enough time hitting them even wielding a +5 weapon.

The differences look just as dramatic as ever to me. (84 hit points at ECL 20? Even a Wizard or a Sorceror is likely to have almost twice that).

 

[schporto]

Definately. He chose Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, and Power Attack as his feats from his hit dice. These tend to rely on having high damage, high bab, high to hit, reach, or some combination. The monk presented there doesnt really have many ways to take advantage of any of them. Upping the damage that he deals seems like a good plan. Upping the save dc on his stunning fist would also seem like a good plan. Oh and there is also the issue of the vampire being automatically turned/rebuked by any cleric of his equivalent level even if that cleric has a charisma of 1 assuming that they have extra turning or something.

On the feat choices actually I followed what was in PHBII for the 'destroyer'. It was quicker that way. As for the racial choices... when asked to make a 13th level character for a game generally speaking I give very little consideration to how he survived lower levels.
To me the question was can you make a viable ECL 13 vampire? Hence providing an original argument to the point of "How is a vampire worth +8 LA. And what makes a good vampire does not make a good non-vampire. What makes a good non-vampire does not make a good vampire.
I thought it was a valid point.
-cpd

 

[Artoomis]

...Hmm.. maybe, just maybe, I'll write up a monk and monk/vampire. I have PCGen, but it still takes some time...

Nope. Too much work for too little return. I started, but it just takes too long to make all those choices.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

This is a really long post.

I'll try putting together a comparison model. Human Monk 20 Vampire 8/Monk 12. SRD stuff only to keep the choices simpler and I'm not bothering with equipment or listing skill choices. Idental works otherwise. I've steered several choices to favor the Vampire, such as only giving the characters 10 Con. Neither is meant to be particularly min-maxed.

Okesh
Male Human Monk 20
Lawful Good

Strength 18 (+4) (2 Level Bonus Points placed)
Dexterity 13 (+1) (1 Level Bonus Point placed)
Constitution 10 (+0)
Intelligence 10 (+0)
Wisdom 18 (+4) (2 Level Bonus Points placed)
Charisma 8 (-1)

Size: Medium


Total Hit Points: 95 (20d8, 8+4.5*19)
Speed: 90 feet [monk]
Armor Class: 19 = 10 +1 [dexterity] +4 [wisdom] +4 [monk level]

Touch AC: 19
Flat-footed: 18

Initiative modifier: +5 = +1 [dexterity] +4 [improved initiative]
Fortitude save: +12 = 12 [base]
Reflex save: +13 = 12 [base] +1 [dexterity]
Will save: +16 = 12 [base] +4 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +19/+14/+9 = 15 [base] +4 [strength]
Attack (unarmed): +20/+15/+10 = 15 [base] +4 [strength] +1[feat]
Flurry of Blows: +20/+20/+20/+15/+10 [includes strength modifier and feat]
Attack (missile): +16/+11/+6 = 15 [base] +1 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +19/+14/+9 = 15 [base] +4 [strength]

Unarmed Damage: 2d10 +4 [strength]

Feats:
Blind-fight
Improved Trip [monk]
Deflect Arrows [monk]
Improved Critical Unarmed
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike [monk]
Stunning Fist [monk]
Leadership
Power Attack
Cleave
Run
Weapon Focus Unarmed

Special Abilities
Human:

* Extra feat at first level (already included)
* Four extra skill points at first level (already included)
* One extra skill point at each additional level (already included)

Monk:

* AC Bonus for Wisdom
* AC Bonus for level (begins level 5)
* Flurry of Blows
* Unarmed Strike
* Evasion (level 2)
* Fast Movement (already included)
* Bonus Feats (levels 1 2 & 6)
* Evasion (level 2)
* Fast Movement (level 3)
* Still Mind level 3)
* Ki Strike (level 4)
* Slow Fall (level 4)
* Purity of Body (level 5)
* Wholeness of Body (level 7)
* Improved Evasion (level 9)
* Diamond Body (level 11)
* Quivering Palm (level 15)
* Timeless Body (level 17)
* Tongue of Sun and Moon (level 17)
* Empty Body (level 19)
* Perfect Self (level 20)


Kesho, Okesh' evil twin

Male Vampire Human Monk 12
Lawful Evil

Strength 23 (+6)
Dexterity 16 (+3)
Constitution --- [undead]
Intelligence 12 (+1)
Wisdom 20 (+5)
Charisma 12 (+1)

Total Hit Points: 84 (12d12 12+6.5*11)

Speed: 70 feet [monk]
Armor Class: 26 = 10 +3 [dexterity] +5 [wisdom] +2 [monk level] +6 [vampire]

Touch AC: 20
Flat-footed: 23

Initiative modifier: +7 = +3 [dexterity] +4 [improved initiative]
Fortitude save: +8 = 8 [base]
Reflex save: +13 = 8 [base] +3 [dexterity] +2 [lightning reflexes]
Will save: +13 = 8 [base] +5 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +15/+10 = 9 [base] +6 [strength]
Attack (unarmed): +16/+11 = 9 [base] +6 [strength]
Flurry of Blows: +16/+16/+16/+11 [includes strength modifier]
Attack (missile): +12/+7 = 9 [base] +3 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +15/+10 = 9 [base] +6 [strength]

Feats:

Alertness
Improved Trip [monk]
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Improved Critical Unarmed
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike [monk]
Stunning Fist [monk]
Leadership
Lightning Reflexes
Power Attack
Cleave
Run
Weapon Focus Unarmed
Human:

* Extra feat at first level (already included)
* Four extra skill points at first level (already included)
* One extra skill point at each additional level (already included)

Vampire:
* Undead with d12; usual undead traits
* +6 strength, +4 dexterity, no constitution, +2 intelligence, +2 wisdom, +4 charisma
* Turn resistance +4
* +8 racial bonus on bluff, hide, listen, move silently, search, sense motive, and spot
* Electricity and cold resistance 10
* Damage reduction 10 / silver and magic
* Slam attack, energy drain; blood drain
* Gains alertness, combat reflexes, improved initiative, lightning reflexes; also dodge if Dexterity>=13
* More vampire abilities and limitations

Monk:
* AC Bonus for Wisdom
* AC Bonus for level (begins level 5)
* Flurry of Blows
* Unarmed Strike
* Evasion (level 2)
* Fast Movement (already included)
* Bonus Feats (levels 1 2 & 6)
* Evasion (level 2)
* Fast Movement (level 3)
* Still Mind level 3)
* Ki Strike (level 4)
* Slow Fall (level 4)
* Purity of Body (level 5)
* Wholeness of Body (level 7)
* Improved Evasion (level 9)
* Diamond Body (level 11)

Okay, now that that mess is out of the way let's see how our two monks compare at three common hazards of adventuring, dealing with a nasty incoming spell, protecting the party mage from an incoming barbarian, and infiltrating an enemy stronghold to kill the evil within.

Stage 1: 20th level Evil Wizard Vilebrood fires off a hostile spell against the monks. I'm maximizing the spells to remove a random element.

Vs. Distintigrate:
Vilebrood must succeed in a ranged touch attack. Kesho's Touch AC is 20, Okesh' is 19. This gives Kesho a slight advantage I'm not going to bother calculating because I can't be bugged to figure out a 20th level wizard's stats on top of these. So assume it hits.

Okesh's Diamond Soul has a 50% chance of resisting the spell entirely. He further has a Con save of +12 to reduce damage to 5d6 (30HP). Otherwise the maximized 40d6 will kill him.
The DC is 10+6+10 or 26.
Okesh will die on a roll of 13 or less, meaning he succeeds 35% of the time he has to roll. Since he only has to roll half the time this means that:
Okesh takes no damage 50% of the time.
Okesh dies 17.5% of the time.

Kesho has no Diamond Soul so he never resists the spell through SR. His Con Save is +8.
Kesho will die on a roll of 17 or less.
This means:
Kesho Takes no damage 0% of the time.
Kesho Takes 30 points of damage 15% of the time.
Kesho dies 85% of the time.

The other spells I looked at tend to have similar results, although both of them are tough enough to survive one maximized fireball.

Stage 2: Now the team (Having ressurected Kesho) is attacked by Vilebrood's minions. A lvl 15 Barbarian is charging the party's Wizard and only the Monk stands in his way. Let's assume the player chooses to trip the Barbarian, buying time to keep him down for a flurry.

The Barbarian is decked out for battle, with a touch AC of, let's call it 12. They only have one turn to do this or the Barbarian will get past them.

Both have high enough BAB's to succeed in the touch attack on anything but a 1, so assume they both succeed. Now for the opposed test.

Okesh' Modifier is +8 for strength and feat. The Barbarian gets +4 str and rolls a 10. Okesh can only fail on a roll of 5 or less, succeeding in his trip 75% of the time.

Kesho's modifier is +10 for strength and feat while the Barbarian is the same as before. Kesho can succeed on a roll of 4 or more, meaning he succeeds 85% of the time. Kesho is the clear winner this time although his margin of error is much smaller than the other test.

Stage 3:Now the Party reaches Vilebrood's Castle. It's time to sneak in through a window and save princess Brjost from Vilebrood.

Okesh can reliably count on a Move Silently of +24 for skill and ability. Kesho can do the same using his racial modifier of +8 to make up for his lost levels. Okesh gets a slight edge by using his Tongue of the Sun and Moon to ask some random plants and insects for their insights into the castle, gaining only minor relatively insignificant information, but getting to feel cool for his contribution. Then they both go in. . .

But wait! unfortunately Kesho's Vampiric nature prevents him from going in uninvited. He'll have to wait outside. Maybe if the GM is feeling generous the player can control Kesho's cohort Igor for the rest of the mission.

All in all my feeling is that while there's some few things the Vampire can do better than a straight core character, he's unlikely to survive long enough to get to try, and the horrible horrible vampiric weaknesses not only kill the vampire, they will tend to kill the game unless the GM carefully remembers to avoid sunlight, running water, any non-public dwelling (does that include your average dungeon?) etc.

 

[Stalker0]

Kesho is looking a lot better if the wizard casts finger of death...he has a 100% chance to succeed against it.

If desintegrate is such a nasty spell for this guy, give him a ring of couterspells with disintegrate in it. Part of being a pc is learning to cover your weaknesses.

I'm not saying the analysis is wrong, its just incomplete. It forgets that a pc vampire will do what he can to cover his bases, its not another npc with some random gear, the pc takes and keeps what is useful. The vampire has more natural armor than a normal guy but less to hit, perhaps he'll opt for a amulet of mighty fists instead of an amulet of natural armor for example.

I also don't think the monk comparison is the best one, as monks suffer badly from multiclassing in the first place. A fighter or a rogue would be a better fighter example.

 

[Spatula]

Why a +8 LA? Massive stat boosts, massive skill bonuses to useful skills, a plethora of bonus feats, an obscure damage reduction type (magic and silver) with a high threshold (10) combined with a rapid regeneration ability (making the vampire immune or at least highly resistant to physical damage), the inability to actually die from HP damage, gaseous form at will, dominate at will... the template is an amazingly powerful one. It comes with a cost (vampires are vulnerable to all sorts of things), but clever players can and will figure out ways around the weaknesses.

 

[Jack Simth]

Would you look at that........ (Looks at "Su" tag on the dominate ability)

Huh.


....BTW, why is the caster level included in the description if it's a "Su" power?

Range and Duration, perhaps?