How is a vampire possibly worth +8 LA?

[Artoomis]

Yeah, average vampire HP at 5th level is going to be 38. Maybe not quite bad enough to get one-shotted when you factor in the DR, but most CR 13 enemies will two-shot this character with ease.

That's true for a wizard or soceror, too.

...Vampire PCs are a joke. However, I don't really see that as a huge problem since the vampire template is mainly for enemies IMO. If your players really want to play vampires, D&D is a poor choice for a system to use.

I don't know about being a "joke," but I would not want to play one as a PC. I think they are quite survivable and viable, but they have too many restrictions for my taste and I don't really think evil characters are a good idea, mostly, anyway.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

No more so than the vampire. Or did you miss the fact that they have more hit points (or at least as many) as a straight wizard or sorceror? Plus DR , fast healing and just as many magic items to help out, of course. And, naturally, very likely the feat that let's them substitute Cha for Con for bonus hit points. Note the Cha is +4. An extra 2 points per hit die won't hurt any!

They have about the same hit points as a straight wizard or sorcerer but not the spells ranging from buffs to forcefields to counters to illusions that go with it. DR, fast healing, etc. are nice but there's so many things that can counter them (Like the Sun, or a foot-deep stream) that you're screwed for staying alive very long as an adventurer. The Meat shields will have to protect you like a Wizard, but you won't be lobbing destructive spells, Buffing the meatshields, or protecting them from other spells so what are you good for?

 

[Grog]

That's true for a wizard or soceror, too.

With average rolls and a 16 Con (perfectly feasible with items), a 13th level Wizard or Sorceror will have over 70 hit points. Anything that can two-shot them will probably one-shot the vampire. And they'll have a lot more tools for dealing with the threat than the vampire will.

I don't know about being a "joke," but I would not want to play one as a PC. I think they are quite survivable and viable, but they have too many restrictions for my taste and I don't really think evil characters are a good idea, mostly, anyway.

Sorry, I just don't see how they're survivable and viable. And I don't see how they can fill any role in a party that can't be filled much better by someone playing a character from a PHB race.

Front-line fighter is right out, obviously. 38 hit points won't stand up to CR 13 monsters, even with DR 10. And the vampire fighter only gets one attack vs. three for a standard-race fighter, and his attack bonus will be 5 points less (-8 BAB, +3 Str). The only advantage the vampire has over a standard-race fighter is immunity to crits, but with such low hit points, enemies won't need crits to drop him in a hurry.

Archer? Again, his low BAB is going to cripple him. Only one shot per round (or two with rapid shot) compared to three or four for a standard-race archer. And he's -7 to hit compared to our friend the elf (-8 BAB, +1 Dex). His damage per shot might be roughly equal, but that makes no difference since the vampire can't hit anything. His low hit points probably won't be as much of an issue here, since he's away from the front lines, but the first time someone drops a Fireball on the party, there's a good chance that the vampire is toast since his Reflex save bonus is going to suck.

Spellcaster? What good is a 5th level spellcaster in a 13th level party? He's basically forced into the role of a buffer, since by this time the party is running into a lot of monsters with SR that the vampire has no chance of penetrating, and even if his spells do affect the monsters, they'll be doing pathetic damage. Sure, he can cast a couple of Hastes and other buffs, but they'll have a crappy duration, be easily dispelled, and it's nothing a 13th level spellcaster couldn't do much, much better.

Rogue? The vampire will be very slightly better than a standard-race rogue at some critical rogue skills (and I do mean slightly - we're talking 1 or 2 points at most here), and a hell of a lot worse at other critical rogue skills (as in, 7 or 8 points worse). Who wants a rogue who can't disarm a trap? Plus, any trap he sets off (which will be just about all of them) is going to vaporize him (remember the crappy Reflex save), while a standard-race rogue might be able to escape via Evasion or simply withstanding the damage. Not to mention the extra damage the rest of the party will be taking from the traps he can't disarm. And the vampire is useless in combat.

Monk? This is actually one of the best classes to take advantage of the vampire's abilities (negative levels on unarmed attacks), but it doesn't matter how many negative levels he can inflict since he can't hit anything (with his mightly +3 BAB). And his flurry sucks compared to a 13th level monk. And also see the aforementioned problems of going down in one or two hits.

Non-combat "talker" type character? The vampire's Bluff and Sense Motive skills may be 1 or 2 points better than a standard-race character, but all his other skills (like Diplomacy, Intimidate, and all the Knowledge skills) are going to suck by comparassion. His Dominate Person ability might help him here, but he's no better off than a human wizard or sorceror (who can also cast Dominate Person) against humanoids, and a hell of a lot worse off against non-humaniods thanks to his crappy skills.

And all these vampire characters can't go out in daylight, have to lug their coffins around with them (or never venture too far from home), and can't be healed unless there happens to be a neutral or evil cleric in the party with a liking for Inflict spells (yes, they have Fast Healing, but there's no way for them to get emergency healing in combat should they need it).

Vampires certainly don't look viable as characters to me.

 

[pawsplay]

Where?

My MM3.5 has both Vampires and Vampire Spawn going gaseous, returning to their coffin, and then being helpless... under 'Fast Healing'.

And the MM Errata only mentions a Vampire's alternate form... the gaseous-form-at-0 isn;t affected by Errata.

-Hyp.

Hey, whaddaya know.

 

[Ryan_Singer]

Check out the Tome of Necromancy on the WOTC forums.

Unliving (subtype)
An Unliving creature is an undead that mimics many of the capacities of a living creature without truly being alive. An unliving creature has the following game effects:
- Unliving creatures have a metabolism of sorts, and thus have a Constitution score.
- Unliving creatures require food (often blood or flesh) and sleep, and are vulnerable to magical sleep effects even if they are otherwise immune to mind affecting effects.
- Unliving creatures have at least one vital organ, and are subject to critical hits from attackers with at least one rank in Knowledge (Religion).
- Not destroyed upon reaching 0 it points, though its existence still ends if it reaches -10 as normal.
- Subject to subdual damage, but can benefit from the Regeneration ability as normal.

Vampires
"An eternity of loneliness and betrayal is, ultimately, an eternity."

A vampire is an unliving mockery of life that lives by cruelly consuming the blood of the innocent. Only characters slain by a vampire's Constitution Drain rise as vampires, and even then only if they have 5 hit dice or more. Characters with less hit dice become monstrous vampire spawn and do not retain their abilities.

Character Modifications:

* Type: The character's type changes to Undead and the character's former type becomes a subtype with the "augmented" modifier. The character also gains the Dark Minded and Unliving subtypes.
* Hit Dice: The character's Hit Dice, BAB, Saves, and skills are all unaffected.
* Ability Scoress: The character gains a +2 bonus to his Strength and Charisma.
* Alignment: The character's alignment changes to Evil.
* Special Attacks: The character can drain blood from a helpless or willing victim, inflicting 2 points of Constitution Drain per round. The character heals 5 points for each point of Constitution drain in this way, and consuming 4 points of Constitution from intelligent creatures is considered enough "food" for one day (and the vampire gains no sustenance from any other food). Humanoids slain by this Constitution Drain may rise as vampires or vampire spawn (though the character has no control over them unless granted by another ability).
* Special Qualities: The character gains Turn Resistance +2. The character suffers 2d6 damage and is considered staggered every round he is exposed to direct sunlight. This damage cannot be healed by any means until the character is in a place with no light at all (such as a coffin). A vampire character is vulnerable to Light effects.
* Level Adjustment: +0

 

[Bardsandsages]

A few things:

A vampire gets a +6 bonus to Strength. This means an extra +3 to attack and +3 to damage rolls. Assume for the sake of arguement the base 5th level creature is a fighter and already had a strength 16. You now have a creature with a Strength 22. Put a Greatsword in his hand and without any feats he's doing 2d6+9 damage on a successful hit, and has a +11 to his attack roll. Add to this that this fighter has a Natural Armor bonus of +6 and a Dex bonus of +4. Assume his base Dex was only 14. As a vampire it becomes an 18. Before you even put any armor on him his AC is 20! Oh, wait, he gets the Dodge feat for free. So his AC against a single opponenet would be 21.

Again, this is before you add any associated feats or magical gear.

Or, he can just punch you with a slam attack, doing 1d6+6 damage and energy drain.

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

Now all the sudden his 13th level opponent is effectively 11th level.

A vampire properly designed and equipped is a deadly PC as a fighter. Maybe he doesn't have as many hit points as a 13th level fighter, but he's automatically healing 5 a round anyway.

 

[Goolpsy]

Theres some things you just gotta know... think irl for a moment:

Theres an annoying druken man yelling at you... if you were to oppose him in a melee fight, would you be small and thin, or big and strong? (i choose big and strong.., if i where small and thin i would avoid melee)

Now.. a Vampire.. with 12+ 4*6,5 HD = 48 hp (Core First HD is MAX), shouldn't really be going melee vs a biiig bad hard hitting guy... maybe some small minions...

btw, you can always find things thats good vs someone.. the Fireball argument is just plain bad..
think of this: "edgtigth a Wiz is just soo vulnerable vs Disintegrates"
Now sure you can do lots of things vs Disintegrate... BUT So can a Vampire vs all of the suggested things..

Im sorry but i cannot see all your arguements about Vampires being weak... would you go melee with a Wizard? 4+12*2,5 (34) hp..?

 

[schporto]

So out of curiosity I built 2 monks. I'm not the best at building optimized characters, but here's the stats (used PCGen for what it is worth, 28 point buy, 110000gp.):

Melee Monk, Male Dwarf Monk13 CR 13; HD (13d8)+39; hp 107; Init +4 (+4 Dex, +0 Misc); Spd Walk 60'; AC 26 (flatfooted 22, touch 21), SA: +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type, +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids, +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells, Abundant Step (Su) ~ 1/day, AC Bonus (Ex), Diamond Body (Su) ~ Immune to poisons, Diamond Soul (Ex), Fast Movement (Ex), Flurry of Blows (Ex), Improved Evasion (Ex) ~ No damage on successful save, half damage on failed save, Ki Strike (Su) ~ (Magic, Lawful), Purity of Body (Ex) ~ Immune to natural diseases, Slow Fall (Ex) ~ 60 ft, Stability ~ +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground, Still Mind (Ex) ~ +2 save vs. enchantment, Stonecunning ~ +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, can also intuit depth, sensing approximate depth underground, Stunning Fist 13/day (DC 18), Wholeness of Body (Su) ~ 26 hp/day; Vision: Darkvision (60'), Normal AL: LG; Sv: Fort +14, Ref +15, Will +13; STR 23, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 6
Skills and Feats: Jump +18; Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Possessions: 1 Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, 1 Gloves of Dexterity +4, 1 Belt of Giant Strength +4, 1 Bracers of Armor +5, 1 Cloak of Resistance +3, 1 Ring of Protection +3
Innate: Dimension Door
Unarmed Attack: +18/+13 2d6+8

--------------------------
Vampire Monk: Male Elf Monk5 ; CR 7; Medium RACETYPE ; HD (5d12); hp 40; Init +11; Spd Walk 40'; AC 35, touch 24, flat-footed 28, Base Atk +3; Grp+12; Atk: +14 (1d6+11/20/x2, *Slam ) or ; Full Atk: +14 (1d6+11/20/x2, *Slam ) or ; SA +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects, AC Bonus (Ex), Alternate Form (Su) ~ can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action, An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it, Blood Drain (Ex) ~ drains blood from a grabbed opponent dealing 1d4 point of Constitution damage each round it maintains a hold, Children of the Night (Su) ~ command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action, Create Spawn (Su) ~ A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial, Dominate (Su) ~ crush an opponent’s will just by looking into their eyes (DC 11 Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence), Energy Drain (Su) ~ creatures hit by a slam attack (or any other natural weapon) gain two negative levels, Evasion (Ex) ~ No damage instead of half damage on successful save, Fast Healing (Ex) ~ 5, Fast Movement (Ex), Flurry of Blows (Ex), Gaseous Form (Su) ~ as a standard action, can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 6th) but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability, Immunity to magic sleep effects, Ki Strike (Su) ~ (Magic), Purity of Body (Ex) ~ Immune to natural diseases, Resistance to Cold (Ex) ~ 10, Resistance to Electricity (Ex) ~ 10, Slow Fall (Ex) ~ 20 ft, Spider Climb (Ex) ~ may climb on stone surfaces as though using the Spider Climb spell, Still Mind (Ex) ~ +2 save vs. enchantment, Stunning Fist 5/day (DC 15), Turn Resistance (Ex) ~ 4; SQ: Low-light, Normal; AL: LE; SV Fort +7, Ref +16, Will +10; STR 28, DEX 25, CON *, INT 11, WIS 16, CHA 12 STR 28, DEX 25, CON *, INT 11, WIS 16, CHA 12 .
Skills and Feats: Bluff +9, Hide +15, Jump +13, Listen +13, Move Silently +15, Search +8, Sense Motive +11, Spot +13; Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike).
Possessions: Amulet of Mighty Fists +2; Ring of Protection +3; Belt of Giant Strength +4; Bracers of Armor +5; Cloak of Resistance +3; Gloves of Dexterity +4; Slam;
Unarmed attack +15 1d8+11 and Energy Drain

So hmmm. Hitpoints less than half, but an AC 9 higher. Average about 14 damage slightly more often, or 15 damage and energy drain less often. Saves Except for fotitude its a wash, and as has been said he's immune to most of that fortitude save stuff. DR and energy effects favor the vampire. Differences in special abilities.
Seems viable to me, if played with a bit of caution.
-cpd

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Now sure you can do lots of things vs Disintegrate... BUT So can a Vampire vs all of the suggested things..

Im sorry but i cannot see all your arguements about Vampires being weak... would you go melee with a Wizard? 4+12*2,5 (34) hp..?

The thing is, you don't HAVE to go melee with a wizard. He's got plenty of awesome spells to use at range. The Vampire doesn't (Or at best he's worse off than the Wizard is for BAB), and many of his special abilities you're losing levels for are melee-based like blood drain and negative energy. A Vampire Wizard can't supply a useful number of buffs, and can't punch through enemy spell resistance, and so he can't hold back the way the wizard can.
Would you care to elaborate on how the vampire can do "lots of things" to counter a fireball, an archer's full attack, or a monk pouring a vial of silversheen on his hands before flurrying the vampire?

A few things:

A vampire gets a +6 bonus to Strength. This means an extra +3 to attack and +3 to damage rolls. Assume for the sake of arguement the base 5th level creature is a fighter and already had a strength 16. You now have a creature with a Strength 22. Put a Greatsword in his hand and without any feats he's doing 2d6+9 damage on a successful hit, and has a +11 to his attack roll. Add to this that this fighter has a Natural Armor bonus of +6 and a Dex bonus of +4. Assume his base Dex was only 14. As a vampire it becomes an 18. Before you even put any armor on him his AC is 20! Oh, wait, he gets the Dodge feat for free. So his AC against a single opponenet would be 21.

Again, this is before you add any associated feats or magical gear.

Or, he can just punch you with a slam attack, doing 1d6+6 damage and energy drain.

Goodie. He gets an extra +3 to attack and only loses +8 to BAB, so in the end a Vampire Fighter's 2 attacks short (Full Attack of +11) and +5 short of the human (Total Attack +16/+11/+8). The armor's nice but Armor's the easiest thing in the world to increase with magic items, that +6 natural armor is very impressive naked but not so powerful (though still nice to have) when a mix of various amulets, rings, armors, and such have boosted each of their ACs through the roof.

 

[Artoomis]

Moonstone Spider,

Certainly having fewer hit points and lower saves (generally) and BAB is an issue.

However, the character is in viable (as shown in the vampire/monk above), but not for all roles at all times. How is that really different from most other characters?

If you do this with a pure fighter what you end up, most likely, with is something other than a front-line fighter. I have no problem with that.

As for AC, etc. and magic items, if you have +6 natural armor that +6 natural armor you do not need to but and you can spend the money on something else.