How is a vampire possibly worth +8 LA?

Just because something is powerful does not mean it's fun. Vampires can create spawn, can walk away from virtually any fight thanks to their gaseous form ability, have great immunities, and although their dominate DC is going to be low... they can do it all day, and they can use it to manipulate weak NPCs. Just as a for instance, a vampire sorcerer could dominate a stable boy, use a spell to disguise him as a decoy, and tell him, "Walk through that door," just to see what would happen.

On the run from the law? No problem, just sneak into an inn at night and kill everyone there, unleashing a mob of vampire spawn on the city. They'll forget about you quick enough. Especially since THEIR victims will rise the next next as wights, and pretty soon they'll be renaming the city to Romeroville.
 

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[rant]So, what's wrong with playing a sneaky investigative game? [/rant]


You don't even have to dominate lots of people to make it worth while. Dominate the local head of the constabulary (butchered spelling) and you have the police force of the town making life hell for the players. They get caught, the vampire wins. They start killing town guards, the vampire still wins...

IMHO, even though a vampire doesn't have 13 HD, they can cause major problems for a 13th level party if they fight on their own terms. I won't introduce a vampire to my 7th level since I'll tpk them if played the way I want to.
 
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question said:
In most campaigns the only problem i can see with dominate is if the PC uses it to try and mass dominate people into giving them free stuff,[...]
If that's the most broken use you can think of, you aren't even halfway trying.

How about dominating the captain of the city guard? Drift into his house in the middle of the night, and catch him alone when he's not prepped for combat. Once he's your slave, you have easy access to his lieutenants as well. Control all the officers, and you control law enforcement in the whole city. Send the guards after your enemies, force them to conceal evidence of your own activities, and maybe have a few specialists collect protection money for you.

If the cops aren't your style, go after the officers of a military division. Standard infantry may not be as individually powerful as adventuring PCs, but they can still clear out dungeons and such, when you buy them in packs of a hundred. Control the right people at exactly the right time, and you might be able to execute a military coup and take control of the country.

Or, to retain your mobility as an adventurer, you might just dominate a few of the strongest warriors you can find. Your party is not the only group of 13th-level characters in the world, so find two or three new meat shields without high Will saves, and "hire" them as your bodyguards. Combat and adventuring are not "against their natures" nor "obviously self-destructive" for a professional warrior, so if you renew the dominate every few days, you can effectively have four characters for the price of one. (Just be careful of dispel magic.) [Edit: Artoomis points out, below, that vampiric dominate is a Supernatural ability and is therefore not subject to dispelling.]

Even if all you really want is to steal money from the rabble, don't go after individual merchants personally. That's stupid and will leave people who know you. Instead, dominate every street thugs you can find, and make yourself their leader. Send them in packs to loot homes and businesses. Back them up from a safe distance with your powers. Distract the guards by having some other thralls start a riot elsewhere. A few of the fodder are bound to get caught, but a simple disguise self ensures they won't have any useful information to give up.

I think I've said this before on these boards, but it bears repeating: One person's lack of imagination does not constitute a problem with the rules.
 
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AuraSeer said:
....Combat and adventuring are not "against their natures" nor "obviously self-destructive" for a professional warrior, so if you renew the dominate every few days, you can effectively have four characters for the price of one. (Just be careful of dispel magic.)...

This Dominate is NOT dispellable. Well, I think so, anyway

SRD said:
Dominate (Su)
A vampire can crush an opponent’s will...


SRD said:
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.
 

A vampire is also undead type which means it can't be subject to a critical hit. Major benefit - eliminates a rogue's sneak attack ability.
 

I have a Vampire PC IMC, a 19th level Half-Elf Swashbuckler (actually he's a Rogue / Fighter / Swashbuckler / Duelist) and he's actually PRETTY GOOD.
Al those immunities (as irdeggman said... crits and sneak attacks!) plus his bonus to abilities, his DR, his Fast Healing (and hisincredibly High AC when fighting defensively that allow him to stand some rounds without even being hit...)
I don't think it's a weak template for a +8.
I believe this particular character would be dealing much more damagem, if he had 8 more levels and weren't a vampire, but would be receiving a lot more as well.

The main problem I see is... you're undead. Then you're subject to EVERYTHING undead are subject too. Turning, disruption, luckily there are some spells that helo you with that...

Is it a bit too much for a +8?

In order to see that I believe someone has to do the numbers Pyrex proposed: Ftr 20 vs. Vampire Ftr 12 or Rog 20 vs. Vampire Rog 12.
 

Stalker0 said:
Here's the problem right there, your assuming people will play a vampire in a combat heavy setting. And as stated many times, most people won't, but that doesn't mean the vampire is weak, its just more situational. In a setting where subterfuge, political schemes and so forth are the norm, a vampire can do very well.

LA creatures are optional, they aren't like core races that need to be designed to fit a variety of settings. So play a vampire when its useful to play one, and forget about him when its not.

Agree with Stalker0 100%. A big perk of being undead is that you are already dead, time is on your side. Undead don't, as a rule, rush to aid anyone, which is the basis for most adventures. Undead wait. They plan, and plan, and plan, and wait some more. Once everything is elaborately set-up the way they want, they set things in motion.

It's like putting a 60 year old brain surgeon on the football field. He is amazing at his strengths, but put him in inappropriate conditions and he'll get eaten alive. You can play a dungeon crawling hack n' slash vampire, but it's not what it is made to do.

Square peg, round hole. Just because the peg doesn't fit, doesn't mean that it's a bad peg. If you find a square hole, it's the best peg for the job.
 

Artoomis said:
This Dominate is NOT dispellable. Well, I think so, anyway
Would you look at that........ (Looks at "Su" tag on the dominate ability)

Huh. :heh:


....BTW, why is the caster level included in the description if it's a "Su" power?
 



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