Pathfinder 2E How is PF2E prep and GMing?

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Point here though, was the idea "if they end up fully healed anyway, why not just cut out the admin and say BAM short rest means full health no clutter needed".

"So that attrition can still happen" seems like the obvious answer.

 

[CapnZapp]

"So that attrition can still happen" seems like the obvious answer.

You missed my point completely.

 

[kenada]

I find PF2 to be a really solid dungeon crawler. It stands out amongst modern versions of the game.

Exploration mode is basically a modern take on the 10 minute turn. This makes it compatible with wandering monster checks and other old school techniques built on turns.

Hazards are well detailed and the guidance on building them in the GMG.

Monster designs are more classical compared to other versions of D&D. Many feel like puzzles or traps.

There are some pretty decent hexcrawl mechanics in the GMG.

One of my short runs was an adaptation of Tower of the Black Pearl (Dungeon Crawl Classics).

My PCs have spent the last few sessions dipping their toes into a megadungeon, and that matches our experience. Exploration mode works very well and maps very nicely onto some of those old-school structures. You don’t have to use them, but I think it helps make the dungeon feel alive and dangerous (which then helps provide an opportunity cost for resting).

I’m not sure I agree about the hexploration stuff in the GMG. While it’s better than the exploration rules from Kingmaker and Ultimate Campaign, it still doesn’t do enough to make travel itself interesting. Admittedly, I don’t like player-known structures for hexcrawling (due to my experience running a Kingmaker campaign, especially compared to my current one).

 

[Porridge]

@Reynard I find PF2 to be a really solid dungeon crawler. It stands out amongst modern versions of the game.

I’ll second this. That said, I’ll confess that my favorite parts of Paizo’s recent APs have been ones which have placed more emphasis on skill and RPing challenges.

The second book of Age of Ashes is a good example. The party is invited as guests to an elven city with the goal of making a good impression. And then there’s a whole level’s worth of XP (and several sessions worth of material) that comes from them pursuing this task in various ways, almost none of which involves combat.

 

[Reynard]

I’ll second this. That said, I’ll confess that my favorite parts of Paizo’s recent APs have been ones which have placed more emphasis on skill and RPing challenges.

The second book of Age of Ashes is a good example. The party is invited as guests to an elven city with the goal of making a good impression. And then there’s a whole level’s worth of XP (and several sessions worth of material) that comes from them pursuing this task in a various ways, almost none of which involves combat.

That's interesting. Maybe I will look that up.

 

[GrahamWills]

We're running an official AP that's at times brutally hard. At these times, more than half of the party has ended encounters at less than half hit points. Since the next encounter might be just as hard, the only way they would go deeper into the dungeon was if allowed to heal up fully, which (after much clutter, choice anxiety and calculations) translates to "half an hour to two hours later".

The sandbox option to throw in a couple of low-level wandering critters to make the party get a move on never felt appropriate - I couldn't in my heart punish them for getting smashed up by brutally hard encounters, could I?

CapnZapp, you clearly have made the decision not to run with attrition. And that's absolutely OK. It's a valid and fun way to play to allow your players to completely heal up after every encounter, especially if your players apparently will just quit the game rather than play in an attrition game.

But it makes your statements that PF2 doesn't work with attrition seem hollow. I am also playing in an AP that's at times brutally hard (likely the same one as you). Most encounters have half the party at low HP -- just like yours (met any elemental giants backed up by dozens of archers yet?). But we have a different play style. We LIKE attrition. After each encounter we ask the GM if it looks safe to rest and the typical answer is "maybe for 10 minutes, but any longer than that and patrols will be coming". So we do go into the next encounter down on HP. We do have to spend magical healing between encounters just to get our fighter up to 75%. Because we like that style of play.

This honestly is not meant as a disparagement on your style of play -- it would be hypocritical of me to say so, as I'm also playing in a fun 4E campaign which absolutely is "full heals between encounters", but it doesn't seem like the differences between our styles are based on the systems -- it seems that they re based on the GM style.

Which, for my money is a strong win -- it makes it clear that PF2 can work well with a full-heal or an attrition play style. It can even do so with using published Adventure Paths, so it doesn't even require much GM work. In fact, our two different experiences show that all it takes is a simple bit of GM direction.

 

[GrahamWills]

For hit point attrition, here are my experiences for various systems of D&D:

• AD&D: Just brutal. Even at mid levels the cost of healing was so high, and natural healing so slow that running out of healing was the main reason to turn around and go home. At low levels the game is defined by attrition, no way I could see to play any other style (unless you throw in some magical help, I guess)
• 3E / PF1: Mixed at low levels. Having a healbot ... err ... cleric in the party made a big difference. I have many memories of LG tables self-organizing with yells going out "anyone have a cleric around level 5?". At higher levels you needed a cleric to counter some insta-death attacks, but once a wand of cure light wounds became cheap (maybe around level 6?) hit-point attrition was not possible without GM fiat
• 4E: Hit point attrition is replaced with healing surge attrition. You could run attrition scenarios (and I did!) but it was not the default and didn't;t have the same feel. Going into a fight low on hits makes you feel worried. Going in with only one or two surges just didn't.
• 13th Age: Uses a similar system to 4E (recoveries instead of surges). Because it integrates combat and non-combat encounters better than most D&D variants, it made it easier to design attrition scenarios, but out-of-the-box, not designed for attrition games.
• PF2: I'd place it lower than AD&D (of course!) and about the same as level 3-5 3E/PF1, but definitely easier to run attrition games in than mid-high 3E/PF1, 4e or 13A.

I have played/run less than 20 5E games, so I cannot comment on its suitability. But if you are interested in running attrition scenarios across a variety of play levels, then either go for AD&D -- which is out-of-the-box all about hit point attrition -- or PF2, which in my experience is the next most easy for a GM to tailor for attrition.

 

[dave2008]

• 4E: Hit point attrition is replaced with healing surge attrition. You could run attrition scenarios (and I did!) but it was not the default and didn't;t have the same feel. Going into a fight low on hits makes you feel worried. Going in with only one or two surges just didn't

With a slight tweak we made being low on surges absolutely terrifying.

 

[Numidius]

With a slight tweak we made being low on surges absolutely terrifying.

What a hint. Now tell us about it!

 

[dave2008]

What a hint. Now tell us about it!

Sorry - I didn't want to go off on 4e discussion.
4e Heroic Surges

Spoiler

We renamed healing surges to heroic surges and allowed / required you to spend them on more things. So instead of encounter powers and daily powers an encounter power cost 1 HS and a daily cost 2 HS. Also, once you passed a power by 10 levels its usage dropped one rank. So a level 1 encounter power became at-will at level 11 (require no HS to use). That is the major change, but you could also spend HS on other things too (like moving faster or doing more damage or making an extra attack).