DeusExMachina
First Post
How is that babe in the barely there armor getting any AC bonus?
Cause the DM is a guy, I guess...
Cause the DM is a guy, I guess...
How is that babe in the barely there armor getting any AC bonus?
- Thread starter GeeksDreamGirl
- Start date
Jack99
Adventurer
How is that babe in the barely there armor getting any AC bonus?
Distraction bonus?
Cause the DM is a guy, I guess...
No, no, no guys. It's obviously because she adds her charisma bonus to AC.. Duh!
Word
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Pity the poor wizard of that time.
She could not wear armor, period (chainmail bikinis included.) And her robes easily burned.
The 1E wizard was better off in a bikini.
The best you could hope for from Dexterity was AC 6. AC 5, if you could somehow obtain 19 dexterity (an elf.)
But then again ...
A +3 Ring of Protection and 18 Dexterity granted AC 3 (AC 17), the equivalent of plate mail. Not bad.
An elven girl with a +5 Ring of Protection and 19 dexterity, would have had an AC of 0 (AC 20 in 3E) or the equivalent of plate armor and shield.
In 3E, it became easy to make weak Rings of Protection (up to +3) and you could supplement that with other kinds of protection, and Dexterity could go way beyond 19 quite easily (armbands of dexterity +3 that you made.)
They had given up painting women in chainmail bikinis by then. Ironic. 3E made it into a much more practical and likely thing, that you'd see such an phonomenon.
If *I* was a pretty girl, in a fantasy setting, I would want to show off my beauty (I'm a guy, not a pretty girl, so I can only conjecture here.)
If I was a warrior/wizard, and I wanted to wear armor (had feats to mitigate Medium to Light Armor, and lessen spell failure chances) then ...
Well heck, I'd cast Invisibility on the Armor, and some form of Weighlessness, and some form of Free Action (armor is *uncomfortable*) and make them Permanent.
Then add an Invisible Cloak of Protection, my Dexterity, and anything else I could think up, and STILL show off my beauty.
Just conjecture.
She could not wear armor, period (chainmail bikinis included.) And her robes easily burned.
The 1E wizard was better off in a bikini.
The best you could hope for from Dexterity was AC 6. AC 5, if you could somehow obtain 19 dexterity (an elf.)
But then again ...
A +3 Ring of Protection and 18 Dexterity granted AC 3 (AC 17), the equivalent of plate mail. Not bad.
An elven girl with a +5 Ring of Protection and 19 dexterity, would have had an AC of 0 (AC 20 in 3E) or the equivalent of plate armor and shield.
In 3E, it became easy to make weak Rings of Protection (up to +3) and you could supplement that with other kinds of protection, and Dexterity could go way beyond 19 quite easily (armbands of dexterity +3 that you made.)
They had given up painting women in chainmail bikinis by then. Ironic. 3E made it into a much more practical and likely thing, that you'd see such an phonomenon.
If *I* was a pretty girl, in a fantasy setting, I would want to show off my beauty (I'm a guy, not a pretty girl, so I can only conjecture here.)
If I was a warrior/wizard, and I wanted to wear armor (had feats to mitigate Medium to Light Armor, and lessen spell failure chances) then ...
Well heck, I'd cast Invisibility on the Armor, and some form of Weighlessness, and some form of Free Action (armor is *uncomfortable*) and make them Permanent.
Then add an Invisible Cloak of Protection, my Dexterity, and anything else I could think up, and STILL show off my beauty.
Just conjecture.
Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
Any one that wonders why some female gamers find it unpleasant to be involved in gaming can be found in this thread. The casual sexism is pretty nasty to read, actually. It makes me pretty sad to see this level of juvenile, puerile excuses for jokes from a lot of posters, most of which I very much like.
For me, the answer is simple:
She's not getting any AC bonus. She is, however, making some manager somewhere happy as he believes he's hitting the right demographic to sell the books. I think it's extremely likely that the presence of a half-naked women actually increased the amount of books sold in any significant way, yet it continues.
I'm also fascinated as to why, in a survey regarding female gamers and how to attract them to RPGing, they are referred to as 'girls' instead of, say, 'female gamers' or indeed 'women'.
For me, the answer is simple:
She's not getting any AC bonus. She is, however, making some manager somewhere happy as he believes he's hitting the right demographic to sell the books. I think it's extremely likely that the presence of a half-naked women actually increased the amount of books sold in any significant way, yet it continues.
I'm also fascinated as to why, in a survey regarding female gamers and how to attract them to RPGing, they are referred to as 'girls' instead of, say, 'female gamers' or indeed 'women'.
MortalPlague
Adventurer
This.
The female in the chainmail bikini is a fantasy art stereotype. Just like the loincloth-clad barbarian, just like the dwarf with a hammer, just like the elf with a bow, the decrepit old wizard, the halfling thief, etc. The list goes on and on. I find stereotypes to be entertaining in art. It's fun to see the scantily clad woman facing down a dragon, or dodging a fireball, or fighting through a horde of orcs. It's not realistic, but it's an entertaining piece of art to look at.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
I refuse to discuss the obvious.
I think it is reasonable enough to acknowledge it, acknowledge that there is nothing I can do about it (other than not posting sexist posts), and try to discuss the matter within the context of the game.
Note that I always refer to wizards (including all subclasses, but not the separate sorcerer, nor the warlock (the male witch)) as female. It is meant as a way of complimenting women.
-
Except for social status, nobody historically wore armor because they liked it. They wore it because they had to.
Mail, the most common type of armor in medieval times, was protection against knife thrusts, minor jabs from larger weapons, and it could offer some protection against heavier hits and arrow hits.
It required an undercoat, to prevent it from abrading the skin right off the wearer. This undercoat was hot, dirty (in our terms, horrifically so), and attracted vermin. However, it offered additional protection.
The helm worn was hot, heavy, and obscured vision. The camail, the chain links coming down from it and protecting the neck, preventing easy turning of the head, and made the whole thing more awkward yet.
The shield was just that. It was heavy and cumbersome. But it protected you from incoming arrows, or the swings of heavy weapons.
In the confusion of melee, with people stabbing and hacking at you from every side, people screaming in pain, people yelling, people rushing and falling and tumbling in all directions, the Standard barely visible above the ruckus, it was nice to have the best armor possible.
Plate armor came late to the scene.
Plate armor offered better protection by far than mail, and it was not much more restrictive or awkward than mail. It was heavier. The helm badly obscured vision.
The advent of the English Longbow at the Battle of Agincourt showed the futility of even plate armor. When firearms were developed, armor was largely abandoned.
-
In D&D, a warrior - be that warrior male or female - is sorta stuck with armor, just as medieval warriors were stuck with armor.
Would a D&D character of low level (and low hit points) care to be in the midst of a large melee with no armor? Would that be wise? And just *who* is it, that is *expected* to wade into that large melee, carry the brunt of the hand-to-hand fighting? The fighter, obviously (and fighter subgroups, such as barbarian, ranger, paladin, and the monk - and the monk's lack of armor was always problematic, but that is another thread.)
The wizard can wear armor. But in 1E and 2E, if she did, she could not cast spells, could barely walk, simply because it was given in the rules that she had spent all her time training to learn magic, and no time training to move in armor.
Smart wizards I knew, back in 1E and 2E, put armor on after they had cast all their spells for the day, and rode on the horse or pony (aided on if needed, tied there if they had to be - falling off a horse in heavy armor tends to be disastrous.) They put the armor on, despite the discomfort, because it was better than being dead. (A similar problem for us all when resting at night, but no wizard could sleep in armor - if she did, she couldn't rememorize spells the next day, her primary power, while the rest of us were merely exhausted and sore from a bad night's sleep.)
Magical armor was a godsend, for it was weightless and it was also comfortable (almost as if Free Action had been cast on it), it did not overheat the wearer under normal conditions, and you could even sleep in it without penalty (even the wizard could ... and considering how fast monsters could attack in the night, and how few hit points the wizard had, this made a HUGE difference for her.)
Elven chain mail (or, simply, Elven Mail) was an even bigger godsend, for a wizard could WEAR it and cast magical spells. It was inconvenient as mail was, but only to about one tenth the degree. MAGICAL Elven Mail was the biggest gift of all: a wizard could cast spells, sleep, and otherwise act in it normally, without any discomfort or impediment at all (and magical elven mail was a treasure beyond price.)
Magical armor, unless it was magical elven chain, tended to go to the fighters first, as they had to wade into melee. Right or wrong, this was what happened. Magical elven chain and non-magical elven chain went to the wizard first and the rogue second.
But we did not always have magical armor, and elven chain mail was a scarce enough luxury!
We had to do without.
The first result of that is the idea of protecting the wizard, with a wall of fighters. A tactic that worked, and it was used so much it became a cliché.
But the wizard had her own ways of protecting herself.
The first was a high dexterity. It wasn't uncommon to see the wizard with a dexterity of 17 or higher. This helped, just a bit, with AC.
Rings of Protection and Cloaks of Protection (cloaks being more immune to fire than normal cloaks) were given to the wizard first.
Anything augmenting dexterity was a good bet for the wizard, although some of the other classes also wanted those items.
Ioun Stones, if we could find them, and if they augmented AC, also were a good bet for the wizard.
The common first level spell Armor, which stacked with Dexterity as I remember, was a mainstay of the wizard, but because it used up a crucial spell slot, it was problematic.
Phantom Armor was a great spell, but again it used up a spell slot.
Shield would have been popular, if the spell slot had been free to use ... heck, Shield was popular anyways.
But spell slots were limited, a good offense was the best defense, and the fighters could completely block incoming opponents from reaching the wizard.
The primary problem began with the arrows, then the spells, launched by the enemy. It went on to become the energy weapons, the breath weapons, the powerful area effect attacks stronger monsters used. And the fighters could not stop huge or powerful monsters from breaking through.
Against attacks of these greater magnitudes, it was discovered soon enough that armor was useless. The answer to the assault was HIT POINTS (you had enough to survive the attack) and the wizard did not have hit points.
What to do?
There was nothing the fighters could do, for defense. The only hope was to kill the monster before it killed everyone, and everyone had to fight it, in order to make that happen.
The wizard, now much stronger, had to take a very proactive approach in protecting herself. With the fighters not only unable to defend her, but unable to keep themselves alive without her help, she had to actively engage the powerful foe.
There were, of course, a variety of ways in which this was done. The common ones included fireball, lightning bolt, spectral force, stinking cloud, rope trick (for saving the party, for hiding), and so on.
The clothing that we wore was quickly destroyed in these battles. Normal clothing was not a match for the claws, teeth, and bites of powerful monsters, or against energy attacks or breath weapons or powerful spells!
Normal clothing was destroyed, and was discarded. Armor was battered, hastily repaired in patchwork way, damaged more, finally so damaged it was lost also.
Magical items tended to withstand the assault. Items specially protected survived. But otherwise, the party became gaunt figures in shredded clothing and wrecked armor, or reduced to wearing scraps of cloth around the loins. And, of course, the monsters just kept coming.
What the wizard wore, at the start, was relevant, only at the start.
By halfway through the scenario, the wizard's clothing was destroyed, only shreds remaining, clinging to her battered, slashed, stabbed, and burned body (think of the Book of Mazarbul in the Chamber of Records from Fellowship of the Ring ... it had been stabbed, slashed, and partly burned, and was so covered in dark stains like bloodstains that little could be made out.)
And this, was *with* the cleric to heal people. (Without him, we were all dead.)
So, although the pics being discussed make for a discussion of some sort (I suppose) to me they are irrelevant.
They would be equally irrelevant to the wizard. She knows what she is heading into, heading into an adventure. Looking good is all fine and well (especially if we must negotiate with some potential foes) but there will be combat, and we'll all end up looking like something out of Apocalypse Now, long before we achieve victory.
(Yes, cantrips did wonders for clothing, when introduced. But cantrips were not enough, and Firefinger was badly needed as a useful way of lighting torches, lighting greek fire, and even as a direct fire weapon (a burning opponent was out of the battle for at least one round.))
I think it is reasonable enough to acknowledge it, acknowledge that there is nothing I can do about it (other than not posting sexist posts), and try to discuss the matter within the context of the game.
Note that I always refer to wizards (including all subclasses, but not the separate sorcerer, nor the warlock (the male witch)) as female. It is meant as a way of complimenting women.
-
Except for social status, nobody historically wore armor because they liked it. They wore it because they had to.
Mail, the most common type of armor in medieval times, was protection against knife thrusts, minor jabs from larger weapons, and it could offer some protection against heavier hits and arrow hits.
It required an undercoat, to prevent it from abrading the skin right off the wearer. This undercoat was hot, dirty (in our terms, horrifically so), and attracted vermin. However, it offered additional protection.
The helm worn was hot, heavy, and obscured vision. The camail, the chain links coming down from it and protecting the neck, preventing easy turning of the head, and made the whole thing more awkward yet.
The shield was just that. It was heavy and cumbersome. But it protected you from incoming arrows, or the swings of heavy weapons.
In the confusion of melee, with people stabbing and hacking at you from every side, people screaming in pain, people yelling, people rushing and falling and tumbling in all directions, the Standard barely visible above the ruckus, it was nice to have the best armor possible.
Plate armor came late to the scene.
Plate armor offered better protection by far than mail, and it was not much more restrictive or awkward than mail. It was heavier. The helm badly obscured vision.
The advent of the English Longbow at the Battle of Agincourt showed the futility of even plate armor. When firearms were developed, armor was largely abandoned.
-
In D&D, a warrior - be that warrior male or female - is sorta stuck with armor, just as medieval warriors were stuck with armor.
Would a D&D character of low level (and low hit points) care to be in the midst of a large melee with no armor? Would that be wise? And just *who* is it, that is *expected* to wade into that large melee, carry the brunt of the hand-to-hand fighting? The fighter, obviously (and fighter subgroups, such as barbarian, ranger, paladin, and the monk - and the monk's lack of armor was always problematic, but that is another thread.)
The wizard can wear armor. But in 1E and 2E, if she did, she could not cast spells, could barely walk, simply because it was given in the rules that she had spent all her time training to learn magic, and no time training to move in armor.
Smart wizards I knew, back in 1E and 2E, put armor on after they had cast all their spells for the day, and rode on the horse or pony (aided on if needed, tied there if they had to be - falling off a horse in heavy armor tends to be disastrous.) They put the armor on, despite the discomfort, because it was better than being dead. (A similar problem for us all when resting at night, but no wizard could sleep in armor - if she did, she couldn't rememorize spells the next day, her primary power, while the rest of us were merely exhausted and sore from a bad night's sleep.)
Magical armor was a godsend, for it was weightless and it was also comfortable (almost as if Free Action had been cast on it), it did not overheat the wearer under normal conditions, and you could even sleep in it without penalty (even the wizard could ... and considering how fast monsters could attack in the night, and how few hit points the wizard had, this made a HUGE difference for her.)
Elven chain mail (or, simply, Elven Mail) was an even bigger godsend, for a wizard could WEAR it and cast magical spells. It was inconvenient as mail was, but only to about one tenth the degree. MAGICAL Elven Mail was the biggest gift of all: a wizard could cast spells, sleep, and otherwise act in it normally, without any discomfort or impediment at all (and magical elven mail was a treasure beyond price.)
Magical armor, unless it was magical elven chain, tended to go to the fighters first, as they had to wade into melee. Right or wrong, this was what happened. Magical elven chain and non-magical elven chain went to the wizard first and the rogue second.
But we did not always have magical armor, and elven chain mail was a scarce enough luxury!
We had to do without.
The first result of that is the idea of protecting the wizard, with a wall of fighters. A tactic that worked, and it was used so much it became a cliché.
But the wizard had her own ways of protecting herself.
The first was a high dexterity. It wasn't uncommon to see the wizard with a dexterity of 17 or higher. This helped, just a bit, with AC.
Rings of Protection and Cloaks of Protection (cloaks being more immune to fire than normal cloaks) were given to the wizard first.
Anything augmenting dexterity was a good bet for the wizard, although some of the other classes also wanted those items.
Ioun Stones, if we could find them, and if they augmented AC, also were a good bet for the wizard.
The common first level spell Armor, which stacked with Dexterity as I remember, was a mainstay of the wizard, but because it used up a crucial spell slot, it was problematic.
Phantom Armor was a great spell, but again it used up a spell slot.
Shield would have been popular, if the spell slot had been free to use ... heck, Shield was popular anyways.
But spell slots were limited, a good offense was the best defense, and the fighters could completely block incoming opponents from reaching the wizard.
The primary problem began with the arrows, then the spells, launched by the enemy. It went on to become the energy weapons, the breath weapons, the powerful area effect attacks stronger monsters used. And the fighters could not stop huge or powerful monsters from breaking through.
Against attacks of these greater magnitudes, it was discovered soon enough that armor was useless. The answer to the assault was HIT POINTS (you had enough to survive the attack) and the wizard did not have hit points.
What to do?
There was nothing the fighters could do, for defense. The only hope was to kill the monster before it killed everyone, and everyone had to fight it, in order to make that happen.
The wizard, now much stronger, had to take a very proactive approach in protecting herself. With the fighters not only unable to defend her, but unable to keep themselves alive without her help, she had to actively engage the powerful foe.
There were, of course, a variety of ways in which this was done. The common ones included fireball, lightning bolt, spectral force, stinking cloud, rope trick (for saving the party, for hiding), and so on.
The clothing that we wore was quickly destroyed in these battles. Normal clothing was not a match for the claws, teeth, and bites of powerful monsters, or against energy attacks or breath weapons or powerful spells!
Normal clothing was destroyed, and was discarded. Armor was battered, hastily repaired in patchwork way, damaged more, finally so damaged it was lost also.
Magical items tended to withstand the assault. Items specially protected survived. But otherwise, the party became gaunt figures in shredded clothing and wrecked armor, or reduced to wearing scraps of cloth around the loins. And, of course, the monsters just kept coming.
What the wizard wore, at the start, was relevant, only at the start.
By halfway through the scenario, the wizard's clothing was destroyed, only shreds remaining, clinging to her battered, slashed, stabbed, and burned body (think of the Book of Mazarbul in the Chamber of Records from Fellowship of the Ring ... it had been stabbed, slashed, and partly burned, and was so covered in dark stains like bloodstains that little could be made out.)
And this, was *with* the cleric to heal people. (Without him, we were all dead.)
So, although the pics being discussed make for a discussion of some sort (I suppose) to me they are irrelevant.
They would be equally irrelevant to the wizard. She knows what she is heading into, heading into an adventure. Looking good is all fine and well (especially if we must negotiate with some potential foes) but there will be combat, and we'll all end up looking like something out of Apocalypse Now, long before we achieve victory.
(Yes, cantrips did wonders for clothing, when introduced. But cantrips were not enough, and Firefinger was badly needed as a useful way of lighting torches, lighting greek fire, and even as a direct fire weapon (a burning opponent was out of the battle for at least one round.))
Allow me to stand alone once again, then:
Lots of fantasy stereotypes are stupid and adhering to them is equally stupid.
It's not about realism. I just don't see the aesthetic appeal of hanging out for the sole purpose of having hanging out. Yes, she has anatomy (though often badly drawn), I get it, but once your hand leaves the hole in your pocket and you see women in real life then the titillation factor in "artwork" that exists for the sole purpose of going "HEY LOOK JUGS" tends to lose its appeal.
Sorry, but I prefer my women smart and smartly dressed.
Lots of fantasy stereotypes are stupid and adhering to them is equally stupid.
It's not about realism. I just don't see the aesthetic appeal of
hanging out for the sole purpose of having hanging out. Yes, she has anatomy (though often badly drawn), I get it, but once your hand leaves the hole in your pocket and you see women in real life then the titillation factor in "artwork" that exists for the sole purpose of going "HEY LOOK JUGS" tends to lose its appeal.Sorry, but I prefer my women smart and smartly dressed.
RangerWickett
Legend
Man, this thread got disturbing.
I wrote the Chainmail Bikinis book totally tongue-in-cheek, with the intent to make fun of the concept. It looks like a lot of people don't realize that taking that sort of crap seriously and actually cheering its inclusion is actually off-putting to a fair number of people.
I wrote the Chainmail Bikinis book totally tongue-in-cheek, with the intent to make fun of the concept. It looks like a lot of people don't realize that taking that sort of crap seriously and actually cheering its inclusion is actually off-putting to a fair number of people.
Timeboxer
Explorer
I hated that book, but I don't think it scared away anyone who, frankly, wasn't already a geek. If you're already a female gamer (gamefem?), you're not really the target audience, in my opinion.
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