How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Raven Crowking]

And being tapped by a GOD is so different? Remember, we're positing that Jeanne is a paladin, not a fighter - she now has supernatural powers - curing disease, healing, detecting evil, etc.

Is Jeanne a paladin? Did she have those powers? I thought we were talking about the historic person.

BUT, if we are talking about a fantasty world person, then, no, it isn't so different. In fact, there are some Spider-Man comics that suggest that Spidey gained his powers mystically from Anansi, and that the radioactive spider bite was just the manifestation of the same.

IOW, Peter Parker was a normal human until he got bitten, when he got superhuman powers. In this light, our fantasy Jeanne was a normal human until she got touched, and got her fancy powers.

Neither is a counter-example of how a character cannot have "previously was a normal person (turnip farmer or otherwise) as a background". The game can handle it very, very easily.

Let's swim back upthread a second:

Lets not.

Or, if you like to, you can go upthread and see that all the subsequent questions in this post have been answered, many more than once.

To me RC? This is why the conversation can't go forward. The definition of "Average Joe" has gone from zero level commoner to a freaking ELITE Level 1 Fighter

To me Hussar? This is why the conversation can't go forward. The definition of "human" has gone from "human" to "normal human". And when "normal human" is shown to be perfectly fine, it jumps to "Average Joe". We are a long way now from claiming that our 1st level fighter is "superhuman".

Without realizing it, perhaps, you have conceded Danny Alcatraz's point, because he never said Average Joe. You have brought your argument down below the bar of what you are arguing against!

Even then, though, it is blindingly obvious that any edition without point buy can produce a level 1 fighter with average stats, and with as few hit points as an average commoner. Likewise, commoners can be created with one or more above-average stats, access to minor spell use (see N1), a bonus to hit that bumps them up to equivilency with a 1st level fighter, or whatever else the DM desires.

Your current "Average Joe" argument, in some editions, then relies upon said fighter being slightly more skilled at arms than the average person, which, unless "skilled at arms" is somehow more of an indicator than "skilled at milling", "skilled at running an inn", or "skilled at taking care of horses", pretty much prevents a wide swath of the campaign world from being an "Average Joe".

Again, let's look at what could be created using the 1e PHB for a moment, using a standard 3d6 set, roll once.

Our level 1 fighter is skilled in four weapons, and can wear armour. He has 10-sided hit dice, giving a range of 1-10 hit points, plus any Con modifier. He has a 0.5% chance of qualifying for exceptional Strength (most fighters will not). On a 16-18 Con, he gains a extra bump to his hit points over what other characters get; there is a 4.7% chance of this occurring.

Meanwhile, our peasant farmer who is in good shape can also wear armour, can also use weapons, and has a range of 1-8 hit points.

It is quite easy to imagine rolls that result in a fighter whose only point of superiority is roughly a 5% better chance to hit opponents due to using the fighter attack matrixes. Using the Secondary Skill table from the DMG, there is even a chance that his background is that of a farmer.

Let me repeat that: Using the Secondary Skill table from the DMG, there is even a chance that his background is that of a farmer.

Now, let me ask you a question: Are you actually saying that you can see no way in which our 1e fighter could legitimately have a background of turnip farmer?


RC

 

[pawsplay]

1. Why is Bob an elite? That's not a normal human right there according to the rules.

Sure it is. Fighters normally have the elite array. A fighter with the non-elite array would be abnormal.

2. Where exactly did Bob learn to use nearly every weapon out there with equal facility?

That happened in third edition. <rimshot>

3. Where exactly did Bob learn to wear all kinds of armor?

He hasn't yet, but he's a quick learner. And frankly, after learning to fight in the butcher mail and scavenged brig he's been using, everything else seems like a piece of cake.

4. What part of Bob's life picking turnips did he pick up the ability to specialize in weapons, something NO ONE ELSE CAN EVER DO?

His vocational counselor ecommended it. What, no one else can take a level in fighter?

So, again, how is Bob a normal human? He's quantitatively better than a normal human by virtue of having an elite array, he has combat skills that no common man can ever learn no matter how much they train and I notice you leave out the fact that he has FIVE AND A HALF TIMES more hit points than an average joe.

He's just an average Joe, who happens to be tough, smart, and a little lucky. And he has skills any common man can learn; most simply lack the knack, or choose to avoid situations that would result in gaining adventuring XP.

Am I not a normal human? I'm pretty sure I can use every martial weapon with basic ability. True, I've rarely used a weapon in a deadly situation, but then again, I've had a lot more time to handle weapons of various sorts than your typical 20-year-old, even one that's been in the militia. Heck, if I were a D&D character, I would probably need a level in monk or ninja, since I can handle a sai or a nunchaku. I don't know exactly how many hit points I have, exactly, but I've never had a broken bone other than a rib. Assuming the normal ability score rolls represent some kind of normal distribution, I have the elite array, as I'm a pretty bright guy who is also strong enough to use a bastard sword one-handed.

Hussar, no one ever claimed the fighter was unexceptional, just that the fighter is fully and completely human, and may not have any advanced training, just moxy.

 

[Hussar]

Without realizing it, perhaps, you have conceded Danny Alcatraz's point, because he never said Average Joe. You have brought your argument down below the bar of what you are arguing against!

Umm, what? Go back and reread how this all started. The entire thing started because DannyA claimed that a Normal Joe was a Fighter 1. Let's roll back the wayback machine shall we?

Were you there when they wrote 'em up? Psychic?

The rules in no way assume that you're "special" beyond the fact that your PC has a modicum of training. That you have an extraordinary stat or two isn't all that unusual. According to D&D Str charts, I have a 14-15 in that stat, and I'm 5'7", 43years old, am a lawyer, and don't work out anymore.

A "1st lvl Ftr" can describe a talented farmboy brawler, an avg. Joe fresh out of basic training, a 45 year old veteran whose skills have atrophied with age & injury or Hercules at age 5. A "1st lvl Wiz" sounds like a graduate if a private HS or college student in terms of education.

How is he not claiming that a F1 is an average Joe when he uses those exact words?

 

[pawsplay]

Umm, what? Go back and reread how this all started. The entire thing started because DannyA claimed that a Normal Joe was a Fighter 1. Let's roll back the wayback machine shall we?



How is he not claiming that a F1 is an average Joe when he uses those exact words?

He specified an average joe "fresh out of basic training," not a statistically unexceptional turnip farmer.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

1) scavenged from a battlefield
2) stolen
3) community chipped in
4) prosperous family farm, and farmboy wanted his birthright early (a la the Prodigal Son, but spent on gear)
5) found in a hidden cache (a la Tom Cruise in Legend)
6) bartered for in exchange
7) satisfaction of a debt
8) indentured servitude

I think these are all good ideas; plot hooks and character motivation cascade off of these. But they actually seem to feed the notion of heroic-ness to me, insofar as they are evocative of archetypal tales or stories: each would be a great kick-off for an heroic career. They are all exceptional circumstances.

To me, it is precisely the confluence of exceptional circumstances that makes a character heroic.

There is nothing exceptional on that list at all.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Re: Average Joe

The F1 Average Joe is unusual only in the sense of the rarity of the pofession as opposed to being a farmer, cooper, or other kind of laborer. If your family was large, you might even expect that some would be sent into soldiering, or the priesthood if smart enough.

Becoming a fighting man did not require some kind of exceptional ability. Big, small- they took 'em all and let the training and happenstance sort them out. If you wer really good, you got a good assignment, possibly specialist training. If you were average, you were a footsildier. If you were on the lower end, you might be sent home as a "future leader" of your town's militia.

But in no way does Average Joe fresh out of basic mean you're extraordinary.

 

[fanboy2000]

Umm, what? Go back and reread how this all started. The entire thing started because DannyA claimed that a Normal Joe was a Fighter 1. Let's roll back the wayback machine shall we?

I agree, but I don't think you went back far enough.

First, KM made a really strong claim. Look at the the first sentence of the quote.

No D&D character is just a dirt farmer done good. The editions vary to the degree this is true (1st ed's "just a typical fighting-man, sir! just happen to be better than most fighting-men, sir!" to 4th eds "You are all 1st level demigods in the making!"), but it's pretty true in any edition.

D&D, especially modern D&D, isn't about Samwise Gamgee the Gardener Turned Hero. It's about Aragon and Gandalf and other epic-from-the-start characters.

Not that it has to be, just that it IS. Which means that Achilles and other mythic fighters are not out of the realm of choice for heroic archetypes for the game.

Of course, while he says that it doesn't have to be that way, he then says that it is. Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but whatever. Still that's some pretty strong language about the nature of D&D and it was begging for someone to say "not in my game."

Maybe your games, but that does not describe my history with D&D at all.

Which is what happened.

Now, of course, that's Dannyalcatraz's (I wonder if he's ever been to Alcatraz, I haven't and I used to live in the Bay Area) experience. It is what it is and you can't really argue with that.

Then I'd say you weren't playing in the style the rules assumed.

So, of course, KM doesn't. Instead he makes the claim that the rules assumed a certain style contrary the style Dannyalcatraz normally played. And that is what started this tangent.

See, here's the deal: anytime someone makes a claim about what style the rules a particular edition of D&D, or D&D as a whole, support--and imply that they either don't like or are indifferent to the style--people come out of the T1 lines to say that that person is wrong. Then an army of equal size comes out and says that the original poster is right.

Anyways, the lawyer from Texas then comes-up with the response you quoted.

Were you there when they wrote 'em up? Psychic?

The rules in no way assume that you're "special" beyond the fact that your PC has a modicum of training. That you have an extraordinary stat or two isn't all that unusual. According to D&D Str charts, I have a 14-15 in that stat, and I'm 5'7", 43years old, am a lawyer, and don't work out anymore.

A "1st lvl Ftr" can describe a talented farmboy brawler, an avg. Joe fresh out of basic training, a 45 year old veteran whose skills have atrophied with age & injury or Hercules at age 5. A "1st lvl Wiz" sounds like a graduate if a private HS or college student in terms of education.

But after all of this, I gotta question for you, maybe I should make it a poll, but here it is:

If you were the DM for a D&D game set in Greyhawk and you wanted to start a game a first level and a player came up to you and asked if his first level fighter could have the back story of being a potato farmer before he was a fighter, would you allow it?

Would the edition of D&D influence your answer? What about the setting? Have you ever played in a game where a PC's background was something similarly mundane?

O.k., that's more than one question, but they all key off each other.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Umm, what? Go back and reread how this all started. The entire thing started because DannyA claimed that a Normal Joe was a Fighter 1. Let's roll back the wayback machine shall we?



How is he not claiming that a F1 is an average Joe when he uses those exact words?

He specified an average joe "fresh out of basic training," not a statistically unexceptional turnip farmer.

Beat me to it.

And I still haven't heard an answer to my question:

It is quite easy to imagine rolls that result in a fighter whose only point of superiority is roughly a 5% better chance to hit opponents due to using the fighter attack matrixes. Using the Secondary Skill table from the DMG, there is even a chance that his background is that of a farmer.

Let me repeat that: Using the Secondary Skill table from the DMG, there is even a chance that his background is that of a farmer.

Now, let me ask you a question: Are you actually saying that you can see no way in which our 1e fighter could legitimately have a background of turnip farmer?

RC

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Now, of course, that's Dannyalcatraz's (I wonder if he's ever been to Alcatraz, I haven't and I used to live in the Bay Area) experience. It is what it is and you can't really argue with that.

Alas, saw it from the shore and no closer. We were scheduled to go on one of the tours, but bad weather made us cancel that. Nobody likes riding a ferry in a thunderstorm.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I wonder if he's ever been to Alcatraz, I haven't and I used to live in the Bay Area

Alcatraz, along with Chinatown on a weekday, is one of the few genuinely worthwhile "touristy" things to do in the Bay Area. It is unsettling, especially the tour at dusk (if they still have it).

That's not to say that they're the only things worth experiencing in the Bay Area -- I moved here 12 years ago after falling in love with the place -- but the best stuff here isn't what you can see from an open-top bus.