How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Normal humans in 1e DIDN'T HAVE STATS AT ALL.

Interesting assertion. When I get the chance, I'll do a reality check out of the modules.

However, even if true, that means nothing as to the extraordinariness of the PCs. At best, it means that the adventure writer felt the PCs in question were going to be unlikely combatants, and left filling things in to the DM if needed.

I'm kinda wondering though, how exactly that farmboy fresh off the turnip truck has enough money to buy armor and a weapon considering his take home pay is measured in silver pieces per month. 20 years might get him a longsword.

Inheritance? Cashed out if the family farm a la The Prodigal Son? Did a special favor for the richest man in town? Stole it? Helped out a passing adventurer (who CLEARLY doesn't know the value of a GP)? Everyone in the village chipped in so the local boy can become one of the King's knights? Found a stashbox while plowing a field?

There are plenty of ways.

 

[Hussar]

And you have no problem with every single PC farmboy suddenly stumbling onto this sort of provenance? You don't see that as being a step up over Joe Average?

And, you don't even have to look at modules. The 1e MM has the stats for all sorts of men. And, guess what? They don't have stats other than an Int score, same as every other creature in the MM.

 

[Hussar]

To have a marginal advantage over an untrained human? Probably a few months. That's how long it takes to get a yellow belt, or to break in a new combat sports player, or for basic training in the military.

Marginal though? Let's jump over to 3e. A 1st level fighter has three times as many hit points, has two feats, is actually capable of wearing armor and using pretty much any weapon and is assumed to have 10 build points more than a standard Commoner 1. The Commoner 1 can use only one weapon, cannot wear armor proficiently, has no feats and has 10 in every stat.

That's a long way from a marginal advantage.

Going back to 1e, it gets even worse. The fighter has access to abilities (percentile strength) that normal humans can NEVER have. A Ranger has 2d8 hp at first level, giving him possibly FOUR TIMES more hit points than the strongest human at first level.

Never mind that Death's Door rules only apply to PC's. Oh, and PC's have action points that NPC's don't.

There's a list as long as my arm of the advantages that PC's get over everyone else starting at 1st level. More wealth than most commoners will see in their entire lifetime, the ability to be stabbed by the most damaging sword stroke and ignoring it, the ability to use more than one weapon, armor, access to skills that NPC's cannot have (class skills) and abilities that NPC's cannot have - Bardic music comes to mind.

Yes, I just jumped all over editions there.

The idea that your 1st level character was some guy just off the turnip truck is not really supported by the rules in any edition.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Normal humans in 1e DIDN'T HAVE STATS AT ALL.

Interesting assertion. When I get the chance, I'll do a reality check out of the modules.

And I have. I'm right now looking at the original Temple of Elemental Evil.

Turns out you're right...but you didn't go far enough.

In fact, many NPCs with actual class levels aren't started out at all either, beyond class level, HP, gear, alignment and XP value. I spotted NPCs as high as 2nd level with that disability. (See the Daughter at location 23, p12, the guards at locations GT 1 & 4, p19, the Brigand Leader at location 7, p22 and the Sergeant at location 33, p26 for examples of statless, leveled NPCs.) FWIW, the Ogre at location 24, p24 has no stats either.

(This is not unique to ToEE, either- I found similarly unstatted NPCs with class levels in the Lankhmar adventures, up to Tenth level: see Nehwon, p13 for the band of Coroval the Courageous. He's 10th, has 2 4th level assistants, and another 15 1st level thugs at his disposal...all statless. Ditto the merchant caravan on the same page: NPCs with class levels and no stats.)

There were also level 0 types who had pricey weapons & chainmail and other goodies, like the Stonemason on p13 (military pick, chain & shield).

This says to me that the mere fact of being a 1st level fighter with listed stats isn't particularly or inherently über special other than denoting that you're a PC, so you get fleshed out. The "Regular Joe" NPCs don't have stats because, by and large, they don't need them.

And if the DM sees you're going on a killing spree through Hommlet, I'm sure he'd feel just fine if he differentiated between the stats for the "daughter" and the other unstatted fighters you'll encounter.

The fighter has access to abilities (percentile strength) that normal humans can NEVER have.

Well, since some of the "normal humans" ARE fighters- however low in level- granting one exceptional strength to stiffen up the challenge for an oversized party, for instance, would not be breaking any rules.

And you have no problem with every single PC farmboy suddenly stumbling onto this sort of provenance? You don't see that as being a step up over Joe Average?

No I don't- see above.

That list I presented was non-exhaustive. I could go on with other ways Joe Average winds up with gear that costs serious $$$.

 

[Hussar]

No, actually, they are not fighters. They are "normal humans". They have a d6 (d4?) hit points, at least according to the monster manual.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No, actually, they are not fighters. They are "normal humans". They have a d6 (d4?) hit points, at least according to the monster manual.

Your point was that PCs were "special" because they got full stats, right?

Yet NPCs as high as 10th level in bona fide classes- Bard, Thief and Fighter in the 2 modules sampled in part- ALSO have no stats in early edition adventures. And yes, they do have all of their level-appropriate benefits like spells and death attacks. This punches a gaping hole in your assertion.

IOW, the only inherent "specialness" to the PCs is that they are PCs. All that stuff about "no stats" is merely an artifact of simplifying the DM's workload.

 

[Hussar]

Wait a second. How is that counter to my point? PC's have stats and NPC's don't. Doesn't that make PC's special?

How many PC's don't have stats?

 

[fanboy2000]

How have you seen warior characters in fantasy books overcome spellcasters?

I recently read a Conan story where Conan's encounter with a wizard was a bit anticlimatic - he just threw a dagger at him and killed him in one shot while the wizard was trying to cast a spell. So, in that case, spellcasting probably took more than the typical "Standard Action" and the wizard had *very* low Hit Points and no protective magic in place (even though he was anticipating the encounter).

If you're still reading this thread, could you tell me what story that was? I'm reading through all the REH Conan material right now for the first time, and I'm having a hard time placing it. It's pretty typical for Conan to dispatch of a people in the manner you mentioned.

Anyways, in answer to your question, bolded for my convience, this is what I've observed:

1. Physical attack.

This is used in stories, like Conan, where combat is quite deadly and people in general, not just wizards, die.

2. Magic Nullification

This is often used when the wizard has used magic to extend their lifespan and uses magic to protect them from physical attack.

Acquiring the ability to nullify the wizard can be the subject of the story. Maybe there is an artifact that nullifies the wizard's ability and the hero has to find it.

Other times, the spellcaster may be kicking the hero's tail and, at the end of the book, the hero finds the source of the spellcaster's power and destroys it or otherwise prevents it from being used by the spellcaster.

In D&D physical attack is typically used by NPCs against PCs, while magic nullification is typically what PCs do to NPC spellcasters.

In addition to reading Conan, I like to suggest Fritz Leiber Lankhmar books. Personally, I'd start with Swords Against Death.

I'd stay away from anything D&D labeled when it comes to fiction.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Wait a second. How is that counter to my point? PC's have stats and NPC's don't. Doesn't that make PC's special?

It counters your point because the lack of stats is not indicative of some game design delineation between "special" and "normal" beings, it's just an artifact of simplified bookkeeping for the DM.

After all, a 10th level character is pretty special, right? And yet there is poor, normal, "Average Joe" 10th level Coroval the Statless Wonder.

IOW, the lack of stats in and of itself only tells you that the character in question is an NPC, not that he's somehow inherently "lesser."

How many PC's don't have stats?

None of course, because the player needs to know everything about his PC. The same does not hold true for each and every NPC the DM controls.

What do you think would happen if, instead of fighting Coroval to defeat him, the party thief challenged him to a test of thieving skills? If he agrees to the challenge, I guaran-damn-tee you that no DM is going to just let the lack of stats let the PC walk all over he NPC. He'll take a break, see which stats he needs to fill out the modifiers for the thief skills that the challenges will be based on.

 

[Hussar]

It counters your point because the lack of stats is not indicative of some game design delineation between "special" and "normal" beings, it's just an artifact of simplified bookkeeping for the DM.

After all, a 10th level character is pretty special, right? And yet there is poor, normal, "Average Joe" 10th level Coroval the Statless Wonder.

IOW, the lack of stats in and of itself only tells you that the character in question is an NPC, not that he's somehow inherently "lesser."


None of course, because the player needs to know everything about his PC. The same does not hold true for each and every NPC the DM controls.

What do you think would happen if, instead of fighting Coroval to defeat him, the party thief challenged him to a test of thieving skills? If he agrees to the challenge, I guaran-damn-tee you that no DM is going to just let the lack of stats let the PC walk all over he NPC. He'll take a break, see which stats he needs to fill out the modifiers for the thief skills that the challenges will be based on.

It still doesn't change the fact that Coroval the Statless Wonder gets no bonus damage to his attacks, gets no bonuses to hit on his attacks.

And, now we've gone FAR beyond Joe farmer as well. We've gone from comparing Joe Farmer to a 1st level PC to a major NPC who is a unique individual in the setting. After all, how many 10th level NPC's are wandering around in the standard setting?

Add to that the fact that our 10th level PC is completely statted out, with his abilities included in his stat block, our 10th level PC is still head and shoulders above the 10th level NPC.

Even in 3e, the 10th level PC is considered a full CR ahead of the NPC.