How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[LostSoul]

Regarding the use of metagame mechanics:

I always had a problem with -Wises, used in a certain way, in Burning Wheel. My favourite example, one that I thought about using in a game but didn't:

DM: The orcs are moving through the forest.
Me: Well, everyone knows that the forest is full of orc-hating treants that will destroy them. They stand no chance! Since everyone knows this, the Ob is 1 or 2, right? I can hit that with my Forest-wise 4. Can I FoRK in Orc-Wise?

Now this is lame in a Story Now game, but if I don't do that I'm not really advocating for my character - I'm not really fighting for what I believe in. The same thing goes for a Step on Up game. I call it "Playing with one arm tied behind my back." If I'm fighting for these things - either to prove my ability or show my beliefs - this sort of mechanic ruins things.

However, I think it does work for a certain kinds of Right to Dream play. If the whole point is to get a certain feel right, then you've got the perfect opportunity to do so (and be judged by the group on how well you do).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...outfight the greatest martial artists,

On occasion. That he beat someone solo that he once needed help to defeat shows either improvement, luck, or his opponent made a mistake. Which it was I cannot say.
When you have well matched opponents, often a single mistake decides the fight.

Do you think Buster Douglas was a better boxer than Mike Tyson? Most people would assert Mike underestimated Buster and got clocked because he made a mistake.

At what point would someone go, "Gee, Batman isn't quite human."

When you show me that his abilities are derived from more than comic-book martial arts training. Show ms some super-soldier serum, genetic mutation, alien blood, or a magic ritual that made him what he is, then you'll start to convince me.

Until then, he's just a highly trained human. And as other DC martial artists show, not even the best.

Or does all equipment get a nod of forgiveness too because, hey, in theory "anyone" could use it

Yep. Gear is gear- it doesn't somehow change you into something superhuman even if it may seem that way.

If I take an AK-47 with a crateload of loaded bananna clips into the jungles of South America and show off to the natives, they may think me some kind of evil god.

But I'm just a man with a gun.

 

[pawsplay]

So what we're saying is that characters like Batman can overcome injuries that would lead to permanent crippling effects, outfight the greatest martial artists, use alien technology, create technology that is super human (i.e. when he's fighting Predators in essentially Iron Man armor), etc... but hey, underneath all that plot protection, he's just a normal guy and damn lucky that no one's just randomly shot Bruce Wayne in the head?

That ain't shoes compared to what Jimmy Olsen has been through.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Regarding the use of metagame mechanics:

I always had a problem with -Wises, used in a certain way, in Burning Wheel. My favourite example, one that I thought about using in a game but didn't:

DM: The orcs are moving through the forest.
Me: Well, everyone knows that the forest is full of orc-hating treants that will destroy them. They stand no chance! Since everyone knows this, the Ob is 1 or 2, right? I can hit that with my Forest-wise 4. Can I FoRK in Orc-Wise?

I think by the book, intended use, you can't use Wises exactly like that. Specifically, you don't set the Obstacle, the GM does. That is one way in which BW is not Story Now, but more traditional. In the group, of course, you are free to suggest an Ob. But the GM has final say. I gather this from things that BW HQ folks have said on the forums from time to time. (I read the RAW BW the same way, but the forum statements have been firmer.)

And even if the GM does accept your Ob, he is not obligated to accept your combination of intent and stakes. I didn't see what the fallout was for missing that roll, in your example. So he might even let that part ride. In fact, that is probably what I'd do. Let you establish the treants for free--then set a tougher route (higher Ob, or multiple Ob's) in order for you to esure the treants come into contact with the orcs in time to do something. If you fail, you may meet the orcs in the forest, possibly at a disadvantaged position. If there is some minor consequence possible for failing the Wise, then I'll let you roll, and pick up the routine check.

Edit: Should have used "let that part ride" since "Let it Ride" is a different mechanism than "Saying Yes".

 

[Raven Crowking]

DannyA - just a nitpick, but, Conan was the last son of Atlantis

Erm.....No. At least, not the Conan REH wrote. Maybe you mean this guy?

EDIT: On the Batman thing, you take away this guy's utility belt, and there's nothing he can do that I cannot:

 

[Raven Crowking]

[MENTION=19998]fanboy2000[/MENTION]: It's called the "Bat-tusi".

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I suspect, RC, that not only can you not invent Bat-Library Paste Remover, but that, even in the event that you did, you will fail to have it in your glove box on the sole occasion that your arch-nemesis utilizes library paste to stick you to your driver seat.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I suspect, RC, that not only can you not invent Bat-Library Paste Remover, but that, even in the event that you did, you will fail to have it in your glove box on the sole occasion that your arch-nemesis utilizes library paste to stick you to your driver seat.

Did he invent it, or does he just carry it? I admit, mine says "WD-40" on the can, but otherwise........

 

[JoeGKushner]

I can see where some of the replies are coming from but, and its just my opinion, if we take out gear, that essentially means Iron Man, Green Lantern, Colossus, Captain Atom, and a majority of characters in those natures are 'human' because they're not always in a 'super' hero state.

The round about point is that Batman exist in a super hero setting and a 'normal' person would be turned to paste if Superman farted next to them but Batman thrives in the setting because he's not human.

Talk about James Bond, Bourne, etc... seems out of place because those specific characters do not exist in the comic mythos.

And it's like I said, just me, but when you're the hero in a super hero setting, well, you're a super hero.

And Jimmy Olsen has had super powers dozens of times, as has Lois and most other people in the DC setting at one point or another. Heck, I believe the planet itself was drafted in WWIII to fight Magdom.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

The round about point is that Batman exist in a super hero setting and a 'normal' person would be turned to paste if Superman farted next to them

So now Lois Lane is also not human. Okay.


Jeff

P.S. I wonder which is worse, being the victim of a Dutch oven or a Kryptonian kiln?