How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[JoeGKushner]

So now Lois Lane is also not human. Okay.


Jeff

P.S. I wonder which is worse, being the victim of a Dutch oven or a Kryptonian kiln?

Uh, you do realize that Lois has had super powers numerous times including being Super Girl with a wig and all right?

But my point is that the definition of human, when boosted to the levels that Batman is routinely shown to have, is meaingless.

"Batman is just a normal human!"

"Except when he dons the power armor, uses martial art levels past any one else, uses technology that doesn't exist yet, outthinks the greatest thinkers in the world, etc... etc.. .etc... right?"

"Well no, even then he's just a normal guy!"

Sure, we can go with 'human' but when he's able to keep pace with the Justice League on a regular basis, he's 'humanity' means nothing. It's just a palceholder.

It's like the old 70's team ups where Green Lantern is routinely getting his ass handed to him by Thugs on his travels with Green Arrow to showcase the social scene and what's going on in that era. "Erh, wait, doesn't the ring protect you automatically? "Yes, but not from plot device!"

 

[Jeff Wilder]

But my point is that the definition of human, when boosted to the levels that Batman is routinely shown to have, is meaingless.

To you.

Batman (Dick Grayson) and Batman (Bruce Wayne) are my two favorite DCU characters ... because they're only human.

It is because of that origin and because of that ongoing fact that I enjoy the characters.

This is exactly the same reason that I (sometimes) enjoy playing "just this guy, you know?" characters in RPGs.

I'm sorry that you don't (I'm also okay with it), but this weird claim of yours that "human" is meaningless as a definition for someone like Batman is simply incorrect. It has meaning for me, and for a huge number of other folks. If you can't grok that meaning, and why it's important to us, again, I'm sorry (but again, I'm okay with that). But, frankly, that's on you.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Did he invent it, or does he just carry it? I admit, mine says "WD-40" on the can, but otherwise........

Now you're really stretching my memory of an episode I haven't seen in ... 15, 20 years ... ? ... but I think the Bats said, "It's a good thing I invented this Bat-Library Paste Remover," rather than, "It's a good thing I brought this Bat-Library Pate Remover."

He certainly didn't say, "It's a good thing I picked up this Bat-Library Paste Remover down at TruValue."

 

[JoeGKushner]

And now we get each other's bit.

To me, because he routinely uses super technology, including a time or two Green Lantern's ring, has had superpowers numerous times, high tech armor, etc... he's a super hero that goes well beyond 'only human.' To me, without plot protection or massive game balance, to go toe to toe with the things Batman does makes him no different than Superman.

To you, it seems like those are merely... shells or something that get donned when needed and at the core, despite his continued standing with Superman/Wonder Woman as part of the trinity, his appeal that he's only human.

It's a conversation I've seen on several sites before where the unlikelyness of Batman as seen in Superman/Batman (or in the old days World's Finest) and his bits in Justice Leauge America are contrasted with his more often 'normal' human like bits in the various Batman titles like Detective Comics and others like Shadow of the Bat.

To you.

Batman (Dick Grayson) and Batman (Bruce Wayne) are my two favorite DCU characters ... because they're only human.

It is because of that origin and because of that ongoing fact that I enjoy the characters.

This is exactly the same reason that I (sometimes) enjoy playing "just this guy, you know?" characters in RPGs.

I'm sorry that you don't (I'm also okay with it), but this weird claim of yours that "human" is meaningless as a definition for someone like Batman is simply incorrect. It has meaning for me, and for a huge number of other folks. If you can't grok that meaning, and why it's important to us, again, I'm sorry (but again, I'm okay with that). But, frankly, that's on you.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Now you're really stretching my memory of an episode I haven't seen in ... 15, 20 years ... ? ... but I think the Bats said, "It's a good thing I invented this Bat-Library Paste Remover," rather than, "It's a good thing I brought this Bat-Library Pate Remover."

I can find out, if it's important. But I'm betting he didn't say he invented it.

He certainly didn't say, "It's a good thing I picked up this Bat-Library Paste Remover down at TruValue."

Of course not!

1. We've never seen a TruValue in Adam West's Gotham City!
2. Batman doesn't carry money (no pockets, and the utility belt is too full of batarangs, anti-shark bat repellant, etc. for cash).
3. Clearly, Batman picked up the WD-40 as Bruce Wayne (or had Alfred pick it up), & mentioning buying it would "out" his secret identity!
4. He then changed the labels on the can. I mean, you've seen the batcave, right? This guy is crazy about labelling things!

 

[Jeff Wilder]

And now we get each other's bit.

Possibly. I'm still puzzled by this ...

he's a super hero that goes well beyond 'only human.'

... because I don't understand why you feel that "only human" is dichotomous to "a superhero."

"Only human" is like "a shapeshifter" or "someone doused in speed-inducing chemicals" or "the last orphan of a dead world" or "the one and only recipient of the Super-Soldier serum."

All of these things are also possible in "a superhero."

 

[Raven Crowking]

... because I don't understand why you feel that "only human" is dichotomous to "a superhero."

Because these people are clearly more than human:

RC

 

[Umbran]

I can see where some of the replies are coming from but, and its just my opinion, if we take out gear, that essentially means Iron Man, Green Lantern, Colossus, Captain Atom, and a majority of characters in those natures are 'human' because they're not always in a 'super' hero state.

The original (faserip) Marvel Superheroes game even had a name for it: Hi-Tech Wonder. A normal dude with technology (or magical implements, or other gear) that allows him to operate as a hero.

Iron Man is the archetype here. But several in both the DC and Marvel universes fit. Green Arrow and Hawkeye, Green Lantern, Captain Britain, Goliath/Ant Man... the list goes on. Bats is in no way unique in being a "normal human" among super-powered beings.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Bats is in no way unique in being a "normal human" among super-powered beings.

Agreed, but I separate Bats/Green Arrow/Nightwing/Speedy etc., from guys like Iron Man and Box. The former are hyperskilled martial artists with some gizmos- somewhat like physically fit gadgeteers- while the latter are predominantly dependent on their tech- true gadgeteers and power armor guys.

 

[Victim]

The whole thing is pretty arbitrary.

Is Batman "just a man" or whatever? Yeah. How much does that actually matter though? Sometimes it matters quite a bit. Other times Batman can get bashed around in ways that would kill or cripple a normal human body, dodge attacks coming from people with superhuman speed, never get shot in the face, etc.

In terms of determining the results of what Batman does, you can infer very little from the fact that he's only human. "Because it's Batman" can play a much bigger role, depending on the writer, other characters involved, the enemy he faces, etc.