How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[JoeGKushner]

Of course, when they borrow abilities from their friends -- as Batman borrows tech quite a bit -- people will bitch about how "everything the fighter can do is because the wizard helped him."

See, I was going the other route that Batman himself is the Wizard because he has so much of his own tech; things that wouldn't exist in the real world. Like the new Batmobile that Grayson was using in the new Batman and Robin when that title launched.

This doesn't get into making artificial green K in Dark Knight Returns or any of the other more amusing things like bat shark repellent.

With Bat's financies, genius, etc... he's got a lot of the verisitility that a wizard with a very full spell book has.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

See, I was going the other route that Batman himself is the Wizard because he has so much of his own tech; things that wouldn't exist in the real world. Like the new Batmobile that Grayson was using in the new Batman and Robin when that title launched.

This doesn't get into making artificial green K in Dark Knight Returns or any of the other more amusing things like bat shark repellent.

With Bat's financies, genius, etc... he's got a lot of the verisitility that a wizard with a very full spell book has.

Or an Artificer.

 

[pemerton]

I think KM's point is that a non-magical PC, in D&D, isn't guaranteed to be able to do what Batman does because eg skill rolls, to hit rolls etc are needed - whereas for wizards they are not.

This really has nothing to do with whether or not, in the fictional world, Batman is a human. It's whether the mechanics should produce the result that the player of a mortal hero should have a harder time of having Batman-level effects on the story, than the player of a supernatural hero does in having Superman-level effects on the story.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The point stands: nothing Batman does in combat sans equipment is beyond the ability of a D&D fighter, monk or other martial PC.

Skill rolls are another matter, but that isn't the issue, since wizards & fighters get the same number of skill points...just different class skills.

 

[Hussar]

Which point though DannyA?

I've noticed something of a drift here. At the start of this conversation, it was that fighters were basically the same as normal humans, just a bit better. IOW, a 1st level fighter literally was the farmboy just off the turnip truck.

When that was pretty soundly disproved (1st level fighter has access to abilities that no normal human can possibly have, 1st level fighter can survive damage that no normal human can survive, just to name two elements) suddenly "normal human" got changed to Batman.

Y'know what? I don't really even consider someone like Michael Jordan to be a normal human. I mean, I could train sixteen hours a day for most of my life and still not be as good of a basketball player as he is. Batman would routinely crush MJ on the court. Then he'd turn around and kick Hoyce Gracies ass and then compare notes with Bill Gates on how to create the next version of Windows.

And the funny thing is, Batman, from a certain perspective is a normal human. He doesn't have any super powers. But, while 100% factually accurate to call Batman a normal human, it's false in all the ways that actually matter.

But, hey, if you're saying that a 1st level fighter is Batman, then, basically, we're saying the same thing. Because whether you want to say Batman or Hercules, they're both not even in the same ZIP code as an average commoner.

Which was my point all the way along.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

First I'm going to respond to the threads original topic:

The "Fighter/Mage-User Same Team Power Disparity at High Skill Levels" is largely a modern western concept born from D&D itself.

In Arthurian Legend, Merlin was roughly on par with the various major knights. His only magical powers were prophecy, casting protective enchantments and dispelling curses. Several of the major knights had such knightly purity that they could not be cursed and had such skill at arms that they had no need of protective charms. Merlin could not destroy towns on a whim.

In Wuxia, if there was a sorcerer capable of easily leveling towns on the heroes side, the warriors were one man armies capable of balancing on a leaf floating in the middle of a lake during a monsoon.

In the Anime Slayers, Lina and Gourry had roughly the same level of skill in there respective classes. When facing a band of a dozen brigands Lina would cast a spell or Gourry would defeat them with a show of swordsmanship to the same result. As for the dragon slaying spell Dragon Slave that Lina found while treasure hunting? Gourry had the Sword of Light, a weapon that could critically injure Demon Gods.


Now on to Batman:

Batman's power level varies depending on whose writing him, where he's appearing and who he is facing.

In the Dark Knight films he is a physically fit, well trained human with access to experimental military grade equipment. He faces street thugs, mobsters, non-superhuman ninja and madmen.

In the JLA comic books he is an impossibly wealthy(in an emergency and need of a spaceship? Got one prepped and ready to launch) 5+dan blackbelt in a dozen martial arts, master detective, with the equivalent knowledge of someone with a master's degree in chemistry, physics, biology, psychology and medicine. He faces evil gods, advanced alien invasion fleets, and businessmen able to cause total global economic collapse.

When it requires a martial artist who can kill superhumans unarmed(Lady Shiva) or a super soldier (Deathstroke) in order to beat you in a fight you are superhuman even if you are a "normal" human.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Which point though DannyA?

I've noticed something of a drift here. At the start of this conversation, it was that fighters were basically the same as normal humans, just a bit better. IOW, a 1st level fighter literally was the farmboy just off the turnip truck.

When that was pretty soundly disproved (1st level fighter has access to abilities that no normal human can possibly have, 1st level fighter can survive damage that no normal human can survive, just to name two elements) suddenly "normal human" got changed to Batman.

That is some amazingly selective reading of my posts. Nothing of the kind was "pretty soundly disproved" since I pointed out 1st level fighters in published sources who were, in fact, still working in mundane professions like farmer or tavern wench...and who had all the special abilities available to them as per their class.

Y'know what? I don't really even consider someone like Michael Jordan to be a normal human.

Michael Jordan might disagree, as would his MD and his momma. I think I see where your problem is.

But, while 100% factually accurate to call Batman a normal human, it's false in all the ways that actually matter.

Not within the context of the fictional universe in which he lives.

But, hey, if you're saying that a 1st level fighter is Batman, then, basically, we're saying the same thing.

No, Bats is an experienced fighter. He trained 15 years before becoming an adventurer. During that training, he "leveled up" but it wasn't until he donned the cowl that he got any real "live fire" action.

Because whether you want to say Batman or Hercules, they're both not even in the same ZIP code as an average commoner.

"Average commoner" and "normal human" are not identical terms, nor are they mutually exclusive. I'm a normal human, but I'm far beyond average in many ways.

Batman may not be an average commoner, but he, too, is just a normal human.[/QUOTE]

When it requires a martial artist who can kill superhumans unarmed(Lady Shiva) or a super soldier (Deathstroke) in order to beat you in a fight you are superhuman even if you are a "normal" human.

I can't agree with this at all. After all, it doesn't require a superhuman to beat him- a simple gunshot would do it. No sniper has ever really tried, though. Ditto explosives. Thank you, plot protection!

 

[I'm A Banana]

As far as I can tell, they do.

They can't do what Superman can do, but they can do what Batman can do. They can't fly or use telekinesis or spontaneously generate electricity. But they can fight awesomely.

Functionally, Batman can do all those things, as well as what Superman can do. Let's take flight. Batman can't just leap into the air and soar...but he can leap into the air an extraordinary height because of his martial arts training, and he can open his cape to function like a glider, with which he can catch thermals because of his brilliant intellect and practice, and combine it with the grappling hook to rope him to higher vertical ground.

He might need the right "planning" or "equipment" or "tool," but this is just Batmanspeak for the right "magic item" or "god's blessing" or "supernatural skill."

A D&D warrior needs to depend on the generosity of a DM dropping the right item or providing the right mount or giving the right set-up and permitting them to make the right skill checks to maybe do any of that.

For a D&D warrior to work like Batman (without having to be as intelligent themselves), we could have the player just say "I use my Soaring Wings ability to take to the sky!" And Soaring Wings would say something like "The user flies 25 feet."

This would represent some combination of athletics, tools, skill, training, knowledge, and natural ability, without the player needing to actually line everything up like that.

That just means he took a different career path- it doesn't elevate him above humanity.

His "career path" is "fantasy hero," which isn't a career path available to any Real People, including Michael Jordan and Stephen Hawking. It's a career path arguably available to any burger-flipper with a dark secret and a drive in the fictional universe of the funny pages, but for Actual Human Beings, it's not an option.

That's key because the moment we start working within the fantasy milieu, we don't have to justify what any character can do based on what actual, real-life human beings are actually capable of in real life. What Batman can do is not based on what actual real, flesh and blood, Michael Jordan mortal human beings can do. It's based on what fantasy heroes can do.

And D&D fighters, then, don't have to rival Michael Jordan anymore. They get to rival Batman (who rivals Superman and all sorts of other clearly not normal people characters).

I think KM's point is that a non-magical PC, in D&D, isn't guaranteed to be able to do what Batman does because eg skill rolls, to hit rolls etc are needed - whereas for wizards they are not.

This really has nothing to do with whether or not, in the fictional world, Batman is a human. It's whether the mechanics should produce the result that the player of a mortal hero should have a harder time of having Batman-level effects on the story, than the player of a supernatural hero does in having Superman-level effects on the story.

Spot on. The fiction that Batman exists in bears no resemblance to reality.

The fiction that D&D warriors exist in bear no resemblance to reality.

Reality is not a useful measure to calibrate what these characters are capable of.

Myths, legends, epics, idealized power fantasies -- that is what these characters are capable of.

"Normal in the context of the fiction" or not, they are not normal in the context of REALITY.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

I can't agree with this at all. After all, it doesn't require a superhuman to beat him- a simple gunshot would do it. No sniper has ever really tried, though. Ditto explosives. Thank you, plot protection!

Funny, I remember a couple attempts to use both situations.

In one attempt a sniper was contracted to kill Bruce Wayne or some other VIP. Batman caught wind of it and set it up so that when the sniper took position to fire either he, Robin or another Bat was there to take him out.

In another situation Batman was trapped with a bomb he couldn't defuse. He escaped by riding out the blast in a nearby safe.

 

[WizarDru]

See, from my perspective, most of the latter part of this discussion is just speaking to the fact that Batman is a character who can be used in a wide variety of stories. He can be in a street-level crime drama in which he takes down a thug with a car battery one day and take out Darkseid the next. He can be disabled by a lucky shot to the head from King Tut or he can go toe-to-toe with a horde of Kobra's thugs and not get a scratch. He can travel through time, hang with the Demon and fight drug kingpins.

Each writer treats him differently; Morrison has created what some call the "Bat-God", Batman as the ultimate expert. On the one hand, nothing he does is beyond the capability of a normal human in a comic book world, but at the same time he has accomplished more and is capable of more than a dozen other superheroes.

Batman in a discussion like this is something of a macguffin, due to his popularity, long life and (as noted) plot protection. If we remove Batman from the equation and then replace him with say, Green Arrow or similar heroes, I think we'd see a difference in the discussion. Even characters like Captain America and the Punisher are both too powerful and famous to be counted (as most characters don't consider surviving in a chunk of ice for 20+ years or being turned into Frankenstein and getting better as 'normal').