How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Dannyalcatraz]

In one attempt a sniper was contracted to kill Bruce Wayne or some other VIP. Batman caught wind of it and set it up so that when the sniper took position to fire either he, Robin or another Bat was there to take him out.

So he survived the sniper attack by not being shot?

I guess that settles it- you'd HAVE to be superhuman to survive not being shot by a trained sniper!

In another situation Batman was trapped with a bomb he couldn't defuse. He escaped by riding out the blast in a nearby safe.

So he survived the bomb by finding an explosive resistant area in which to take cover?

I guess that settles it- you'd HAVE to be superhuman to survive an explosion by taking cover!




Going back a ways to Bat's plan vs Supes...

The key to his plan wasn't exploiting Supes' weakness to kryptonite, but rather noticing that Supes relies on his powers like a crutch- his REAL weakness.

Because of it, even though he's fast enough to avoid any kind of physical contact a human could initiate, including gunfire, Supes is so confident in his gifts that he will stand there and let you hit him. In the staged attack on Supes in DKR, the kryptonite arrow could have easily been avoided.

A criminal with a few kryptonite-tipped bullets or a kryptonite bowie knife may well be able to kill Supes if they make the same deduction.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

So he survived the sniper attack by not being shot?

I guess that settles it- you'd HAVE to be superhuman to survive not being shot by a trained sniper!

So he survived the bomb by finding an explosive resistant area in which to take cover?

I guess that settles it- you'd HAVE to be superhuman to survive an explosion by taking cover!

Ugh, Danny, please stop. You are using fallacious arguments, primarily a variation of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, irrelevant conclusions, and begging the question.

The point being is that while Batman's race is "normal" human, just like Superman's race is "Kryptonian" and the Flash's is "Speedster," he is still a superhero. They all solve problems in ways that are beyond what real people can reasonably do. If a sniper shoots a bullet at a one of them: Superman catches the bullet with his superspeed, the Flash dodges it after the shot is fired, and Batman already new about the sniper and set it up so that the sniper could not make the shot for various reasons. They handle the bomb problem in a similar way: Superman survives by his invulnerability, the FLash outruns the blast and Batman dives into a nearby safe and rides out the blast in a way that would kill a real person but comes out unharmed.

Going back a ways to Bat's plan vs Supes...

The key to his plan wasn't exploiting Supes' weakness to kryptonite, but rather noticing that Supes relies on his powers like a crutch- his REAL weakness.

Because of it, even though he's fast enough to avoid any kind of physical contact a human could initiate, including gunfire, Supes is so confident in his gifts that he will stand there and let you hit him. In the staged attack on Supes in DKR, the kryptonite arrow could have easily been avoided.

A criminal with a few kryptonite-tipped bullets or a kryptonite bowie knife may well be able to kill Supes if they make the same deduction.

One of Batman's, and also Sherlock Holmes', "superpowers" is to make those kinds of deductions. No one else can really make those deductions because they don't have the "World's Greatest Detective" class. Your average thug with kryponite weaponry would not make those deductions or have the ability to act on them, only Batman and those with similar skills can and do.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ugh, Danny, please stop. You are using fallacious arguments, primarily a variation of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, irrelevant conclusions, and begging the question.

No, you're providing extremely bad counterexamples.

That someone survives a sniper attack by having the attack thwarted- your example- is in no way indicative of being superhuman. Ditto your example of surviving an explosion by taking cover in an explosion-resistant thing like a safe- arguably, something like that could provide more protection than a bomb suit.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

In another situation Batman was trapped with a bomb he couldn't defuse. He escaped by riding out the blast in a nearby safe.

Was he inside a refrigerator at the time?

DannyA - you posted examples of exceptional unique people (classed NPC's are not normal people) in an attempt to say that normal people are just like PC's.

This is patently untrue. It's untrue in any edition. The simple fact that you can grant a PC class to an NPC doesn't make NPC's "normal people" it means that this given NPC is NOT a "normal person". The bartender is a retired 5th level fighter is a pretty common trope, but, note, he's a retired ADVENTURER, not a lifetime bartender/inn keeper who has never ventured beyond the walls of his town.

An NPC has lower stats than a PC, lacks access to abilities granted to PC's (exceptional strength, Action Points, to name two examples), cannot survive damage that PC's can actually walk away from, can't use the Death's Door rules in some editions, on and on and on.

How much does it take for a PC to not be considered "normal human"?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

DannyA - you posted examples of exceptional unique people (classed NPC's are not normal people) in an attempt to say that normal people are just like PC's.

In what way is a 1st level fighter who works as a menial in her father's business "exceptional?" For all you know, she's like Kate from Taming of the Shrew, a psycho, or just likes to fight. Unusual, perhaps, but not exceptional.

The bartender is a retired 5th level fighter is a pretty common trope, but, note, he's a retired ADVENTURER, not a lifetime bartender/inn keeper who has never ventured beyond the walls of his town.

If it says he is, he is. If it says he's head of the local militia in a town that frequently gets overrun by invading goblin hordes, he may never have left his town in his life.

You're letting class levels lead you to making assumptions about backgrounds, and that's simply not supported by what is in print.

An NPC has lower stats than a PC, lacks access to abilities granted to PC's (exceptional strength, Action Points, to name two examples), cannot survive damage that PC's can actually walk away from, can't use the Death's Door rules in some editions, on and on and on.

I'll grant you death's door and action points since those are explicit carve-outs, but the rest simply isn't true. The lack of info in those NPC stats are merely evidence of an intent to simplify bookeeping. The spellcasters have multiple levels of spells- so we know they have to at least meet the casting minimums for those. The rogueish ones have death attacks and the like. And while nameless, statless "Daughter" (again, how is she exceptional merely by virtue of being a Fighter?) may not have exceptional strength- actually, in that edition, as a female, she is prevented from having it at all anyway*- that doesn't mean there aren't other NPCs fighters with it. And it's not like every PC fighter had it, either.





* Actually, Hussar, which is it? Is she exceptional because she's a fighter or is she merely normal because she's just a nameless, statless NPC?

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

No, you're providing extremely bad counterexamples.

Actually I'm pointing out where to situations you brought up were countered.

I can't agree with this at all. After all, it doesn't require a superhuman to beat him- a simple gunshot would do it. No sniper has ever really tried, though. Ditto explosives. Thank you, plot protection!

You said that Batman wasn't superhuman because he could be taken out by a sniper or explosives. I brought up one situation each were he prevented himself from being taken out by a sniper or explosives.

That someone survives a sniper attack by having the attack thwarted- your example- is in no way indicative of being superhuman. Ditto your example of surviving an explosion by taking cover in an explosion-resistant thing like a safe- arguably, something like that could provide more protection than a bomb suit.

You are trying to Move the Goalposts:
1. Your assertion - You said that it does not require a superhuman to beat him, and gave 2 examples of non-superhuman threats that could beat him.
2. Proof that your assertion was false - I provided examples where Batman beat those threats
3. Attempts to dismiss - You are saying that my examples don't count because anyone could do them.
4. Requesting other greater evidence - You said my examples were bad and are implying that you want better examples.

If you still want "better" counterexamples I can give you them:

1. Sniper sent to kill Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne predicts when and where the shot will be made. Bruce Wayne dodges when he predicts that the sniper will fire and the shot misses.

2. The bad guys deliver a supertech bomb set to blow up a city, Batman has had little to no contact with the supertech before and successfully defuses the bomb on his first try.

 

[fanboy2000]

I would like to point out that there is a difference between normal meaning ordinary or most common, and normal meaning possible, but not necessarily probably, in real life.

You know, for whatever it's worth.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually I'm pointing out where to situations you brought up were countered.

No, what I said was:

After all, it doesn't require a superhuman to beat him- a simple gunshot would do it. No sniper has ever really tried, though. Ditto explosives. Thank you, plot protection!

Tried, yes- but in the former, the shot never hit him because of the intervention of others, ergo it cannot be evidence of his superhuman-ness. In the second, he took cover- as any human might- and survived. Had he survived without taking cover, you might have an argument in your favor. But what he did was no more remarkable than a bomb-squad tech surviving an unplanned detonation in his bomb-suit.

Remember, the point was whether he was or was not superhuman. Not being shot is no evidence at all. Surviving an explosion from which he took cover is at best ambiguous.

You are trying to Move the Goalposts:
1. Your assertion - You said that it does not require a superhuman to beat him, and gave 2 examples of non-superhuman threats that could beat him.
2. Proof that your assertion was false - I provided examples where Batman beat those threats
3. Attempts to dismiss - You are saying that my examples don't count because anyone could do them.
4. Requesting other greater evidence - You said my examples were bad and are implying that you want better examples.

No, I'm not.

The problem lies in your second point- he survived the threats, but he did so by mundane reasons.

Look at the history of some of the RW's leaders and see just how many shootings and bombings they've survived. Are they superhuman for doing so? Absolutely not. Some of the attempts were thwarted by intervention- as the sniper attack on Bats was. Mubarek, for instance, survived 6 attempts, including an assault by multiple AK-47 wielding assailants.

Some people have survived bombings by being protected within bomb resistant areas or just the bodies of others, like the Iraqui journalist Muaid Lami who survived an explosion that killed 5 people next to him with relatively minor chest and arm wounds. Again, this is mundane...as in, not supernatural or superhuman.

And as for your 3rd point, yes, they don't count because they could be done by anyone. If literally anyone can do it, then it isn't evidence of being superhuman. It isn't evidence of anything at all.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you still want "better" counterexamples I can give you them:

1. Sniper sent to kill Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne predicts when and where the shot will be made. Bruce Wayne dodges when he predicts that the sniper will fire and the shot misses.

That is what I'd call excellent detective work, especially within the context of comic books or other escapist literature. Again, that proves nothing.

2. The bad guys deliver a supertech bomb set to blow up a city, Batman has had little to no contact with the supertech before and successfully defuses the bomb on his first try.

So, multiple attempts (successful and unsuccessful) at defusing bombs gives him an edge...but he doesn't know the particular tech in question. Still he manages to defuse the superbomb?

Again, this is something you'd find as a common trope in action stories.

It used to be, every bomb had different colored wires and a countdown clock. Nowadays, most fictional bombs are closer to the real things- multiple redundant detonators, etc., and especially, fewer clocks and no "telltale" wiring.

And yet I just watched a communications/dispatch agent with NO field agent experience on Primeval successfully pick the correct wire out of multiple identically colored wires on a bomb with no visible timer, a tripwire/counterweight trigger, and a metronome trigger to save the agent she's falling for.

Is she superhuman?

No, like Bats, she (and her future beau) had narrative plot protection (or in layman's terms, she got lucky)*. As did Bats.

Surviving a bomb by defusing it is not evidence of being superhuman unless doing so requires you to do something no human can do, such as fit your arm (your ACTUAL arm, not some waldo) down an 8' long, 2" in diameter shaft to do so.



* And that was in a show that has killed off most of the lead characters from the first season. They're not afraid to kill characters off, often spectacularly.

 

[pemerton]

In Arthurian Legend, Merlin was roughly on par with the various major knights. His only magical powers were prophecy, casting protective enchantments and dispelling curses. Several of the major knights had such knightly purity that they could not be cursed and had such skill at arms that they had no need of protective charms. Merlin could not destroy towns on a whim.

In Wuxia, if there was a sorcerer capable of easily leveling towns on the heroes side, the warriors were one man armies capable of balancing on a leaf floating in the middle of a lake during a monsoon.

These are good examples - and not just for taking us back to the relevant literature, but for pointing out how martial characters can have abilities that are the functional equivalent of D&D magic (resistance to curses, preternatural balance) although they are, in the story, not anything other than a manifestation of their martial prowess.

The point stands: nothing Batman does in combat sans equipment is beyond the ability of a D&D fighter, monk or other martial PC.

The issue isn't whether or not the PC can achieve it if the GM is very generous, and/or if the player in question rolls three 20s in a row. The question is whether it is a baseline for a martial PC, as it is a baseline for Batman.

To reiterate - I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that, in the fictional world of DC comics, Batman is a supernatural being. They're saying that, by the standards of the real world he is a fantastic being. And that there is no reason why RPG PCs shouldn't be able to be similarly fantastic in what they can do, even if within the gameworld they are not supernatural.

3E, with its requirement that martial abilities be handled via skill checks rather than the auto-success associated with spells, doesn't do this.

Skill rolls are another matter, but that isn't the issue, since wizards & fighters get the same number of skill points...just different class skills.

Skill rolls aren't another matter - they are the very matter at hand! In 3E, a fighter can only climb if his/her player makes a successful roll on a d20, whereas a wizard can climb with no chance of failure if his/her player has ticked the "spider climb" box at the start of play. So the player who has opted to bring Merlin to the table is better able to emulate Batman than is the player who has opted to bring Batman to the table. This is the problem KM is talking about.

The solution, as KM says, is to give martial PCs powers that don't require good dice rolls in order for those PCs to fill their designated roles:

For a D&D warrior to work like Batman (without having to be as intelligent themselves), we could have the player just say "I use my Soaring Wings ability to take to the sky!" And Soaring Wings would say something like "The user flies 25 feet."

This would represent some combination of athletics, tools, skill, training, knowledge, and natural ability, without the player needing to actually line everything up like that.

Another good example to add to the examples of balance and curse resistance given by Ultimatecalibur.

The fiction that Batman exists in bears no resemblance to reality.

The fiction that D&D warriors exist in bear no resemblance to reality.

Reality is not a useful measure to calibrate what these characters are capable of.

Myths, legends, epics, idealized power fantasies -- that is what these characters are capable of.

"Normal in the context of the fiction" or not, they are not normal in the context of REALITY.

Fully agreed.