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How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

Prof C, all I would want to add to your post is that you leave out Conan as perhaps the most salient of (post-)modern heroes when talking about D&D warriors.

But yes, Beowulf and Conan both get stripped of their power and heroism if we insist that their modernism (if we can talk about that in relation to Beowulf) be reflected not only within the fiction, but at the metagame level of the player's protagonism.
 

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Well, one of the more obvious solutions is actually pretty much what Batman does: Make their own gear.

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From an out-of-character perspective, they could simply select powers.

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From an in-character perspective, they could stumble upon their item ("Guess what I found under the chicken coop!"), they could craft their item ("Using Undying Ice from the Frostfell, I craft a suit of armor!"), they could pay someone else to craft it ("Dear Dwarves of Glacier Mountain..."), they could be rewarded with the item ("Huh, guess the Queen of Winter liked the way I killed that dragon..."), they could have it delivered by an international support network ("Thank you for this most recent gadget, Q!"), or they could even discover the way to make that happen from simple research in a fantasy world ("Oh, I guess if I bend the metal here, and add this bit of dragon's tooth there, and leave it out in a snowbank overnight....").

Same way Spellcasters learn new spells, warriors gain new items.
This is roughly how I do it in my 4e game, using wishlists and treasure parcels as per the DMG. (And counting the rituals found or granted against the wizard PC's notional share of the treasure.)

Of course it could be more systemetised than treasure parcels. And we could also have better guidelines for differentiating items by class (eg fighters use items that are literally items, whereas priests use more divine boons and monks use more special training, etc).

I remember that the idea of wish lists generated a lot of horror when 4e was released, and is still mentioned fairly often in disparaging tones. Do you have any ideas on how to sell it, or how to sell your amped-up version of it?
 

Imagine if a D&D fighter did not have to depend on DM handouts to get their magic items. They could craft their Flametounge or their Holy Avenger themselves. "Craft" is an ambiguous term -- they could dunk their armor in the blood of a red dragon and make it Armor of Fire Resistence. The don't "cast magic" per se, but the weapons and equipment they wield become enhanced.

We got to see some of that in Dragonslayer in the crafting of the Spear...even though it wasn't up to the task.

D&D also took a stab at that with Weapons of Legacy, but it was ultimately too bogged down with feat requirements.
 

I remember that the idea of wish lists generated a lot of horror when 4e was released, and is still mentioned fairly often in disparaging tones. Do you have any ideas on how to sell it, or how to sell your amped-up version of it?

Take the DM out of the equation. Much like how the DM is out of the equation with spells. The DM doesn't need to do anything for your fighter to get his Vorpal Sword. It's right there on the Fighter chart under "Epic Weapon," their level 18 class feature. YOU get to choose it!

DMs don't need to bother handing out +1 weapons anymore. Instead, they can give out, I dunno, the Hand of Vecna. Or a Well of Many Worlds. Or a Decanter of Endless Water.

DMs don't have to parcel out treasure according to a wishlist.

Fighters get all the items they need to kick butt.

Wizards still get spells.

Everyone's happy, no?
 

Most of those examples you would name would be non-wizard vs wizard stories or wizard/witch/other-spellcaster grants a boon and not "wizard and non-wizard team-up to go questing."

Most of them would include divine intervention or fantastical beings. I'm not sure where the first tale of the old man sorcerer came from. Maybe Arthurian legend is where I first came upon it. Most of the past myth involved gods interacting with mortals and they were almost the sole wielders of what we would see as magic.



And that is why I said major knights. Figures such as Gawain, Lancelot(ugh talk about a french Marty Stu), Percival, Galahad, Mordred, Tristan, Dinadan and even Arthur himself. These guys went around slaying dragons, beating up giants, thwarting the schemes of various sorcerers and enchantresses and defeating groups of a dozen or more rival knights. Each of these guys was just as feared/respected by the common knight as Merlin was.

The Knights of the Round Table were the medieval equivalent of the Justice League. Round Table pages and squire were often better knights than the knights other kings could field.

The knights were strong. But I doubt any one of them could go toe to toe with Merlin. Many of them fell sway to lesser wizards than Merlin. But Arthurian legend didn't involve much flashy D&D magic where the simple motivation is to destroy. Most older fantasy used wizard-types as enchanters of men's minds. Different type of fantasy that you could simulate using the D&D system, but it definitely isn't the D&D version of the wizard.

That depends on how you define wizard. If you include wandering sages and priests who go around defeating supernatural threats then you have your adventuring wizards who sometimes hang out with various warriors.

It completely depends on the writer. But in my experience the adventuring wizard hanging out with the fighter is something mostly seen in D&D. Most of what I've read written before D&D's time involved wizard-type figures that were ancient and powerful. Usually the young fighter was seeking them out to help them save the kingdom or for some other reason or the young fighter was an object of desire or a pawn in one of their games.




I don't know if you are aware of how this whole discussion came about. But it came down to complaints that 3E gave the wizard too much power, thus rendering the fighter or other classes as useless and weak. And thus a game system that didn't make it so fighters stood a chance against wizards one versus one was what made fighters useless.

Many of us, myself included, don't see it that way. Fighters don't have to be able to take a wizard in a one on one fight to be useful. Just like you don't see Gandalf fighting Aragorn or Rand'al'thor blasting down his non-magical buddies or Merlin blasting down Arthur or Superman kicking the living crap out of Aquaman to put it into superhero perspective.

And ultimately it is up to the DM to create challenges that incorporate the abilities of every class into the game. Not sit there and let the wizard scry, teleport in, cast a no save spell, and end the encounter which apparently is what a great many of the people complaining about the 3E magic system were experiencing. Yet it wasn't something experienced by DMs like myself that have been playing for years and know better than to let players game the system.

I don't think because certain players are abusing a system that it should be re-designed in a manner that removes all chance of abuse and puts said fighter and wizard on equal ground for no other reason than game balance even if it completely removes all the flavor from the magic system and waters it down into a very uninteresting, uninspired system that adheres too strictly to balance versus flavor. Especially given that decades of flavor were built into the magic system that made it a unique aspect of the game system.

It would have been better to incorporate ideas about how DMs can deal with some of the situations that come up using story telling devices rather than slavishly adhering to the rules. Because a DM is ultimately the lead storyteller first and foremost. His or her job is to drive the story. The rules are a framework for adjudicating combat and other situations, but are still there to serve the story first and not the other way around. As a 3E and now Pathfinder DM I don't have trouble challenging my players, even with the so called omnipotent wizard present.

I prefer my D&D be representative of fiction. Which often makes the heroes extraordinary, even the fighter types. Though the fighters might lose to a prepared wizard in a one versus one battle, they are no less impressive than the wizard when they step onto the field of battle and go toe to toe with a giant or cut down a horde of trolls by themselves. It is up to the DM to create scenarios where the fighter shines bright. That is more important than the game designer trying to balance the fighter versus the wizard whether it be in fiction or in a game.
 

Take the DM out of the equation. Much like how the DM is out of the equation with spells. The DM doesn't need to do anything for your fighter to get his Vorpal Sword. It's right there on the Fighter chart under "Epic Weapon," their level 18 class feature. YOU get to choose it!

Or simply something like the mechanic in the OA Samurai, CompWar Kensai and XPH Soulknife.
 

Well, one of the more obvious solutions is actually pretty much what Batman does: Make their own gear.

Imagine if a D&D fighter did not have to depend on DM handouts to get their magic items. They could craft their Flametounge or their Holy Avenger themselves. "Craft" is an ambiguous term -- they could dunk their armor in the blood of a red dragon and make it Armor of Fire Resistence. The don't "cast magic" per se, but the weapons and equipment they wield become enhanced.

From an out-of-character perspective, they could simply select powers. "Oh, I'm level 3, I'm going to gain the Armor of Frost ability that lets me freeze enemies who hit me!" Next adventure, they have it.

From an in-character perspective, they could stumble upon their item ("Guess what I found under the chicken coop!"), they could craft their item ("Using Undying Ice from the Frostfell, I craft a suit of armor!"), they could pay someone else to craft it ("Dear Dwarves of Glacier Mountain..."), they could be rewarded with the item ("Huh, guess the Queen of Winter liked the way I killed that dragon..."), they could have it delivered by an international support network ("Thank you for this most recent gadget, Q!"), or they could even discover the way to make that happen from simple research in a fantasy world ("Oh, I guess if I bend the metal here, and add this bit of dragon's tooth there, and leave it out in a snowbank overnight....").

Same way Spellcasters learn new spells, warriors gain new items.

Armor. Weapons. Boots. Rings. Rogues are no longer outclassed by a wizard with invisibility, because they get to choose their very own ring of invisibility at about the same level.

This also frees up the DM to award more random treasure. Rather than useful, narrow, practical things, the DM can play with magic items with a heavy cost, a weird theme, or a slightly divergent theme. More wondrous items, less +1 things. The +1 things are right there for adventurers to make/find/whatever themselves, automagically as they level up.

So a hypothetical D&D Batman goes from a Batarang +1 and a Cloak of the Bat at first level, all the way up to Kryptonite Bullets and a Helm of True Seeing (or whatever).

This also meshes with the myths, and lets characters customize their gear to their hero's theme.

I have a problem with doing it that way. It makes equipment inherent to the character's power. Strip them of their level granted equipment and they become useless. Its an okay concept for certain archetypes like gadgeters and artificers, but for others things like techniques work better.

If the game gives Fighters the ability to leap 40 feet into the air and across a 60ft gorge, what does it matter if the Wizard can fly 30ft a round?

4th edition actually does grant try and grant Fighter these sort of abilities, and few people have problems with what the exploits generally allow 4ed Martial Characters to do. Most of the problems people have lie with either the use limits or the actual mechanics of a power. People often have trouble getting their minds around daily Martial powers and ask questions like, "Why can I only hit guys extra hard once per day?" The other sort of problem comes from powers that could be better designed. Would people be complaining about Come and Get It if it was something like "Enemies within Burst 3, Intimidate vs Will, Hit: Each target must spend his next turn to attempt to make an attack against you. All attacks made in this way grant you an Opportunity Attack."
 

Strip them of their level granted equipment and they become useless.

OTOH, the Samurai/Kensai/Soulknife avoid this issue by making he power in some way linked to the PC himself. Yes, you might have to perform a ritual, but at least the loss of your weapon is not a perm-screwing.

(Which, FWIW, is how some staves and other magic items are created in fiction...)
 


I have a problem with doing it that way. It makes equipment inherent to the character's power. Strip them of their level granted equipment and they become useless. Its an okay concept for certain archetypes like gadgeters and artificers, but for others things like techniques work better.

That's why you'd make it a character effect rather than an item power. Any sword held by Lancelot is an epic level magic item. Any spear held by Cuchulain bursts into flames when he uses it. Then if it's actually a special enchanted weapon, it gives some extra power that isn't related to the prowess of the person using it; so your specially enchanted spear not only hits harder and causes nastier wounds (any spear you hold does that) but also allows you to throw it at a location, and leap on board to fly there. Carnwennan creates a zone of shadow, Tizona frightens opponents, Stormbringer heals you as it kills enemies. These aren't personal powers of the user, rather they're something that comes from the enchanted weapon.
 

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