How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[pemerton]

the PC classes are listed with minimums

The minimums are not the same as in the PHB - in some cases, at least (druids, rangers, maybe monks?, and paladins other than CHA) they are more forgiving.

How is this relevant? It shows that any attempt to find a systematic set of rules governing NPCs in 1st ed, or establishing the resemblances/differences between NPCs and PCs, is fruitless.

And two questions - do henchmen get the benefit of the more forgiving minimums? And if so, does this affect whether or not a player whose PC dies can convert a hencman into a PC? (My assumption was always that henchmen have to abide by the PHB minimums, meaning that the second question becomes moot. But I didn't get this from the rulebooks, which are silent on the matter. I'm sure there were other more-or-less coherent ways to work it out.)

 

[Hussar]

.e., the argument is not "ALL fighters were mundane" but that fighters, at the start of the careers, could reasonably be considered so.

This was the arguement? I thought the argument was that fighters, at the start of their career were normal as in average, not exceptional, what you would expect to find, that sort of thing.

Are fighters mundane, as in non-magical? Sure. Totally agree with that.

Of course, since that's never been the point of contention, I'm not really sure what that proves.

OTOH, since the game defines about 95% of the population as either a Normal Man or 1st level commoner (depending on edition) I'd say that someone who fits into that other 5% is no longer normal.

See, the way I look at it, I can say that a fighter is not normal or average, and satisfy both the game definition of normal (0 level or 1st level commoner) and the dictionary definition (not exceptional) at the same time. I don't have to reinvent definitions and ignore the rule books to do so.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Because it leads to the absurdity of the 20th-level commoner above:
This character is as good with a hoe as a 6th-level fighter is with a +1 longsword, Weapon Focus and 15 Str. That's even without Weapon Focus (hoe). Why?

Because he's been fighting with hoes for 30 years against orcs, kobolds, gnolls and even dandelions, while the 6th level fighter's been at it for what- a couple of years?

This character can fall any distance with no risk of dying. Why?

Because EVERY character with that many HP has that ability. This could have been avoided by saying Commoner was limited to 5th level. Or 10th. But they didn't.

A blasphemy spoken by a pit fiend cannot harm this character. Why?

See above. If you MUST have a reason, ask your DM. Perhaps he has literally led a blessed life and is protected by the gods. Or perhaps the pit fiend is sniggering so much at the idea of speaking blasphemy at a Commoner he stumbles over the words of his own curse..."Klaatu...Berada...NGIGGLESNORT!"

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The minimums are not the same as in the PHB - in some cases, at least (druids, rangers, maybe monks?, and paladins other than CHA) they are more forgiving.

True.

How is this relevant? It shows that any attempt to find a systematic set of rules governing NPCs in 1st ed <snip>

No, absolutely not- the rules are systematic: generate the base stats as per page 11 and modify them as per page 100. End of story.

It is relevant because several posters have repeatedly asserted that NPCs either have no stats but Int or that they have all 10s. The rules of p11 and p100 show this is completely false.

or establishing the resemblances/differences between NPCs and PCs, is fruitless.

The rules quoted establish that NPCs with PC classes are NOT gimped within those classes as compared to PCs, again, as some have asserted repeatedly.

And two questions - do henchmen get the benefit of the more forgiving minimums?

Yes. Those minimums on p100 apply to all NPCs with those races/classes/occupation. Henchmen are just a subset of NPCs, and especially since they're more likely than other NPCs to have levels in those classes.

And if so, does this affect whether or not a player whose PC dies can convert a hencman into a PC?

Sure, but clearly not to the negative, since the NPC minimums are, as you noted, more generous than for PCs. The reason is that no DM needs to waste time rolling up NPC stats for a Druid only to have the NPC be statistically ineligible...to be followed by another NPC who fails to qualify for his role, etc. Its a time saver. Just like not listing most of the NPC stats in published adventures.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

This was the arguement? I thought the argument was that fighters, at the start of their career were normal as in average, not exceptional, what you would expect to find, that sort of thing.

Are fighters mundane, as in non-magical? Sure. Totally agree with that.

Of course, since that's never been the point of contention, I'm not really sure what that proves.

You may not have asserted otherwise, but at least one poster in this thread has repeatedly insisted that Fighter 1 was, by rule, by necessity, a "Fantasy Hero." A man set apart by destiny.

If that wasn't your position, don't worry about it.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Because he's been fighting with hoes for 30 years against orcs, kobolds, gnolls and even dandelions, while the 6th level fighter's been at it for what- a couple of years?

Well, I guess that depends on your vision of a 6th-level fighter. He's had 67 or more CR-equivalent encounters. That's a couple of months in a fast-paced campaign. Or he's the Castellan of the Keep on the Borderlands. Or he's a mercenary captain in 1E. Yes, I know I'm mixing my editions, but isn't everyone else?

Because EVERY character with that many HP has that ability. This could have been avoided by saying Commoner was limited to 5th level. Or 10th. But they didn't.

Which suggests to me that leveling is a poor way to model experience outside of the PC's space.

Perhaps he has literally led a blessed life and is protected by the gods.

Supernatural protection is always a good excuse. See my previous post.

Or perhaps the pit fiend is sniggering so much at the idea of speaking blasphemy at a Commoner he stumbles over the words of his own curse..."Klaatu...Berada...NGIGGLESNORT!"

How about the next pit fiend, and the next, and the one after that?

We are not talking about a single moment in time when a particular pit fiend targets this particular commoner: that would be a gamist solution. In the game reality, Joe the Turnip farmer can jump off of 1000-foot cliffs, defy powerful devils, laugh at power word: kill AND gains a +26 bonus to his Profession (turnip farming) checks (with the relevant Skill Focus feat). Maybe he's a brawler - with Improved Grapple. He likes to wrestle ogres.

How can this possibly model anything meaningful?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Which suggests to me that leveling is a poor way to model experience outside of the PC's space.

Some would reject leveling entirely...after all, it boosts ALL skills your PC has even if you never use them. Other systems only let you boost skills you actually use. Typically systems without levels.

The point remains- that's how the system handles it. You don't like it, HR it or play something else. Don't agonize.

How about the next pit fiend, and the next, and the one after that?

You think any of them AREN'T going to be laughing their pointed tails off after the first one?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Don't agonize.

I don't

The interface between the game and metagame - where information flows in both directions, and each informs the other - fascinates me.

I play 3.5 precisely because, for me, the balance - on balance - is just right. I'll take the warts.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For the record, I've yet to use a "Commoner" class. Warrior? Yes. Expert? Yes. But Commoner is just useless to me.

 

[pemerton]

How about the next pit fiend, and the next, and the one after that?

We are not talking about a single moment in time when a particular pit fiend targets this particular commoner: that would be a gamist solution. In the game reality, Joe the Turnip farmer can jump off of 1000-foot cliffs, defy powerful devils, laugh at power word: kill AND gains a +26 bonus to his Profession (turnip farming) checks (with the relevant Skill Focus feat). Maybe he's a brawler - with Improved Grapple. He likes to wrestle ogres.

How can this possibly model anything meaningful?

I agree with your rhetorical question.