How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[MrMyth]

No, what I am saying is very, very, very simple:

If it hurts when you do X, stop doing X. Or choose a system in which it doesn't hurt when you do X.

Instead, you choose to keep doing X, and to continue to whine about it. It's just ... ridiculous. There's not another word for it.

Well, I'd think that "Trying to find ways to mitigate frustrating elements of a game I otherwise like" wouldn't fall under the tab of 'ridiculous', but it seems there is little I can say to convince you otherwise.

The possibility for reasonable conversation -- with some of you -- went out the door when you began insisting that the system cater to you, rather than recognizing that (a) a lot of people like the way the system is, and (b) there are other systems for you to choose.

For the first point, has anyone truly insisted that there aren't any folks who do like the system as it is?

For the second... no system is perfect. This is one area where people find a failing in the system. Why is the only response you find acceptable for them to pack their bags up and leave, rather than try to find a way to address what they perceive as a problem in a game they otherwise enjoy?

They aren't the ones insisting the game only should be for them - you are.

No, although there are certainly one or two of those in this thread. But I do genuinely feel that some form of player douchebaggery and GM permissiveness is at the heart of these complaints. That doesn't make you the douchebag or the milquetoast. You could -- and I'm being sincere -- be a victim of the douchebag-milquetoast combo. (Why am I craving s'mores all the sudden?)

Well, several folks have worked to show the various and sundry ways that these sorts of issues have arisen without anyone being a jerk or a failure on the part of a DM, and you seem disinclined to accept those situations and instead consider them douchebags or failures. So... clearly nothing else I say is going to change your view.

I'll continue to maintain that it isn't cool to dismiss other's complaints in such a fashion, and blame anyone who doesn't play the way you do for either doing it wrong or having a personal failing such as the ones you have described. But I'll also bow out of the conversation for now, and leave it at that.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The possibility for reasonable conversation -- with some of you -- went out the door when you began insisting that the system cater to you, rather than recognizing that (a) a lot of people like the way the system is, and (b) there are other systems for you to choose.

I have asked you above what your characters think they are doing if they aren't trying to win. Because the easiest way to fail to win is not stay alive. How do you roleplay someone who isn't really trying to stay alive without giving them a death wish? That is a genuine question.

No, although there are certainly one or two of those in this thread. But I do genuinely feel that some form of player douchebaggery and GM permissiveness is at the heart of these complaints.

To me it's cruddy system design. When I paid for the system I didn't intend to pay for one which I then needed to houserule in order to DM. When I DM I like to run a nice relaxed game allowing the PCs to do what they want - and me to easily keep the tension and the fear factor high. And in a well designed system I can do this.

That doesn't make you the douchebag or the milquetoast. You could -- and I'm being sincere -- be a victim of the douchebag-milquetoast combo. (Why am I craving s'mores all the sudden?)

You call me and a lot of my friends douchebags once more simply because we like to actually roleplay and to play mages as the system encourages and I'm going to start hitting the report button.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Well, I'd think that "Trying to find ways to mitigate frustrating elements of a game I otherwise like" wouldn't fall under the tab of 'ridiculous', but it seems there is little I can say to convince you otherwise.

"Frustrrating elements." Right.

For the first point, has anyone truly insisted that there are folks who do like the system as it is?

... What?

This is one area where people find a failing in the system. Why is the only response you find acceptable for them to pack their bags up and leave, rather than try to find a way to address what they perceive as a problem in a game they otherwise enjoy?

Because the "problem" they perceive is at the very core of, for example, what makes 3E different from 4E. For many of us, the vast disparity in the world-shaking capability of a mid- or high-level wizard and his fighter peer is a feature -- a major feature -- of 3E.

It's not just an "element," frustrating for you or otherwise. It's a core part of the system.

For us, "balance" means, "Hey, is everybody having fun playing? Hey, Bob, playing Toric the Fighter, are you having a good time? Yeah? Ganflagration the Wizard? Sue, you having fun? Cool." For you, "balance" seems to mean (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth; the truth is, I really don't understand the sort of balance y'all seem to want), "Toric the Fighter and Ganflagration the Wizard can have the same effect on every fight," or "Toric and Ganflagration could each win five times if they fought each other 10 times," or ... well, whatever.

They aren't the ones insisting the game only should be for them - you are.

The game exists. They are insisting that the existing game be changed for their benefit, to the detriment of those who enjoy the game as it already exists.

Sorry, but you're insisting that because you can't figure out how to stop dribbling with your face, dribbling needs to be removed from the game. I'm saying, "You'll probably enjoy the game more if you stop slamming the ball with your face ... or you might enjoy playing some HORSE," at which point you respond, "You're kicking me off the court!"

Wah.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

The game exists. They are insisting that the existing game be changed for their benefit, to the detriment of those who enjoy the game as it already exists.

I don't see anyone insisting anything of the sort. I see people pointing out flaws, perceived or not, but I don't see anyone saying, "the system MUST be changed."

I do see a lot of complaints about why people don't like that system, and proposing solutions, everything from Houseruling (as many do, and, in fact as every DM does when they make a ruling on RAW vs RAI, which as you point out, a competent DM must do), adopting Pathfinder's "fixes" (as you apparently have), or switching systems (as many of these posters have).

Having changed systems and found something they like better does not mean that they can no longer point out things about one they used to play, and maybe say, "this is one of the reasons I switched." Maybe you don't want to hear it, but it doesn't mean you get carte blanche to call them douchebags and failures.

Sorry, but you're insisting that because you can't figure out how to stop dribbling with your face, dribbling needs to be removed from the game. I'm saying, "You'll probably enjoy the game more if you stop slamming the ball with your face ... or you might enjoy playing some HORSE," at which point you respond, "You're kicking me off the court!"

Wah.

This is precisely the kind of arrogant, condescending comment I'm talking about.

You're assuming way too much about the points of view of the other posters, and you're being unnecessarily rude about it.

Nobody is dribbling with their faces. To continue this ridiculously inaccurate analogy, it's more like there is a lot of "I don't like basketball, and here is why, and I prefer solution X, because..."

All I hear from you is that "if you're having these problems, you're either stupid, incompetent, or a douche." Real classy.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Nobody is dribbling with their faces. To continue this ridiculously inaccurate analogy, it's more like there is a lot of "I don't like basketball, and here is why, and I prefer solution X, because..."

"I don't like basketball, because the goal is too high for some people to dunk at 10 feet. I'd prefer to set the goal at 16 feet, because then everybody is equally able to dunk."

Gotcha.

The game you want isn't "basketball."

All I hear from you is that "if you're having these problems, you're either stupid, incompetent, or a douche." Real classy.

I'm sorry that's all you're hearing, because it's not what I've said. Just because I know someone in the crowded elevator farted, and say so, that doesn't mean I'm singling you out, Cartman.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

"I don't like basketball, because the goal is too high for some people to dunk at 10 feet. I'd prefer to set the goal at 16 feet, because then everybody is equally able to dunk."

Gotcha.

Actually, no you don't "get me" - you have twisted what I've said so far around, it can see itself from behind. This basketball analogy is so far beyond pointless and inaccurate that it isn't even funny.

The game you want isn't "basketball."

Actually, *I* haven't said what I want. Let's make this a little less personal, shall we?

I'm sorry that's all you're hearing, because it's not what I've said. Just because I know someone in the crowded elevator farted, and say so, that doesn't mean I'm singling you out, Cartman.

No, that really is what you've been saying. Multiple times. "If you have problem 'x' it is because of douchey players, incompetent DMing, or 'you can't figure it out,'" i.e. stupidity.

Again, there is the snide implication that if some people don't like things the way YOU think they should be done, there is something inherently wrong with THEM.

Please tell me where someone has said that the system MUST be changed. Without resorting to ridiculous basketball analogies. Please also show me where they also said, more to the point, that YOU must change with it, or adopt those changes.

The system did change, in a sense, but nobody said that it MUST. Pathfinder (I almost typed 'Patchfinder' haha) and 4e are just two of countless examples, but nobody said that it MUST happen or that everyone MUST start using them.

We get that you like the way things work in 3.x. That's fine, there are lots of things to like about it. More importantly, if/since that works for you and your group, great. Doesn't work for everyone, and not necessarily because They're Doing It Wrong.

Seriously though, do you need to come in here and call people names because they have legitimate criticisms about something?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

All analogies break down at some point. The basketball analogy breaks down particular fast, because it isn't very well chosen. Thus the perception of animosity.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Again, there is the snide implication that if some people don't like things the way YOU think they should be done, there is something inherently wrong with THEM.

For Christ's sake could you possibly whine more?! (Yes, go ahead and hit the "Report" button; it simply has to be asked.)

My "snide implication" is actually "if people don't like the results they're getting from doing X, it's reasonable for them to not do X." That is what I have said and am saying. And it is reasonable, and apparently that is too much to ask from some people.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

For Christ's sake could you possibly whine more?! (Yes, go ahead and hit the "Report" button; it simply has to be asked.)

"I'm sorry if that's what you're hearing, but there's no whining here."

Oh, and consider it done.

 

[NoWayJose]

My "snide implication" is actually "if people don't like the results they're getting from doing X, it's reasonable for them to not do X." That is what I have said and am saying. And it is reasonable, and apparently that is too much to ask from some people.

With all due respect, it seems that Jeff wants the acknowledgement that he has the right to say "if you don't like this game, you don't have to play it" and Nemesis et. al. wants the acknowledgement that they have the right to say "we don't like this game because of x and y". Assumptions about being whiny, snide, etc. may or may not supported by any real evidence and seem to be mostly assumption IMHO.

OK, so now that's all sorted out, with everyone apologizing and hugging, can we finally get back to the important topic... which is *MY* posts?

I'm kidding, I'm kidding, my Enworld level is now "Minor Trickster", I'm just roleplaying...