D&D 5E How it plays vs How it feels and looks

[slobo777]

The biggest thing about magic items that isn't listed (so much) is taking them away. The whole argument about a Wizard with Str 25 vs. a Fighter with Str 25 is the Fighter lost their point buy because they dumped more into Strength to begin with. The thing is, that doesn't go away. Magic items do. Frequently.

Actually I think a more valid argument against the dump stat -> 25 with a magic item being unfair, is that it was dump stat; pretty much everything that character does (and that player wanted them to do) is not related to the stat, so the magic item is not likely to be of interest. There are other problems IMO with such items though.

Taking away magic items (or the threat of them maybe being taken away) is not a solution to them not working well. No more so really, than pointing out that a character from an unbalanced class might die . . .

 

[billd91]

I don't want characters defined by their magic items. Yet I want magic items to be powerful relative to character abilities.

I know there are a lot of people critical of D&D because, as they put it, characters are defined by their items. But I consider that a bit of a misplaced analysis. Items have always been an important balancing factor between martial classes and spellcasters, no doubt about that. But aside from a few iconic cases (paladins with holy avengers or PCs with a particularly juicy item like a vorpal sword or flying carpet), I never had the impression of a PC being defined by his items before 3e.

I think 1e/2e didn't give me that impression because, although some items did have a significant impact (notably carpets of flying and cubes of force), as players we weren't really in control of the item placement process. That was the DM's job. We didn't have (or take) any ownership of that process. It didn't dominate our plans for our PCs. There were notable exceptions when questing for particular items, but those were relatively rare.

Contrast that with 3e's magic item creation and magic market assumptions. At that point, players started really taking ownership of what their PCs had and devised schedules of regular upgrades as the wealth rolled in (according to appropriate guidelines). Those of us who ran 3e games like we ran 1e/2e games, probably still didn't see huge issues with items defining characters. But for those DMs and tables who pursued the new assumptions, perhaps even seeing the WBL and item values as a system like point-buy super power buying in Champions, probably developed the impression of items defining characters most.

But even in 3e, thinking of characters as being defined by items (particularly the simple bonus items) is a fairly shallow analysis. Most item bonuses were small relative to inherent character bonuses derived from stats or class, with AC as the single prominent exception (and let's be honest, how many characters define themselves by their armor protection? Few!). A 15th level fighter may have a pretty sweet +4 weapon and a belt of giant strength +4, but the +4 he gets from the sword and +2 from the belt are exceeded by his +15 from class, +2 from feats, and +4 from his inherent strength. No doubt the extra +6 from equipment helps when fighting at the high end of his opponent spectrum, but the initial +21 is probably necessary to even tangle with the low to mid range of his opponent spectrum.

What I want out of D&D Next's magic items is a renewed sense that items are not regular power-ups on the route to higher level. I want a renewed sense that they are not an entitlement but a reward, usually serendipitous, for adventuring and surviving. I want a renewed sense that players can't safely plan for particular magic items unless they play through quests for obtain them (though I accept that payment in advance is also acceptable as in the case of Perseus being equipped with magic items in order to accomplish the quest of killing Medusa or Frodo being equipped by Galadriel to sneak into Mordor).

 

[billd91]

Actually I think a more valid argument against the dump stat -> 25 with a magic item being unfair, is that it was dump stat; pretty much everything that character does (and that player wanted them to do) is not related to the stat, so the magic item is not likely to be of interest. There are other problems IMO with such items though.

I don't think this is much of a problem. If they were comfortable dumping the stat initially, they were planning on playing in such a way that Strength is of minimal use. How much are they going to shift to using it when equipped with the belt of giant strength? Is the Strength 8 wizard going to suddenly become a tank because his strength shot up to 25? Unlikely... but if he did, at least he's no longer casting all those powerful spells, right? It's not like the switch to melee brute doesn't come with a trade-off.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I don't want characters defined by their magic items. Yet I want magic items to be powerful relative to character abilities.

This one is certainly topical. I think its something we'd all LIKE.

IMHO part of the problem is that all magic items were thrilling back in that dim day when we all first played and the rules were obscure and rather unimportant. The thrill of finding stuff was great, but it wore off once we realized that the result of finding all that loot was you were invincible and there were only so many times that Gauntlets of Ogre Power were interesting.

Everyone wants to recapture that, but it will just never happen. We're not 12 and playing out int the woods in a tent anymore.

 

[Tuft]

Experts should be reliable but there is no suspense or thrill in reliable.

Let experts be reliable but allow them to add suspenseful riders or extras, such as allowing you to climb at higher speed by taking a higher AC.


A good jumper has a suspenseful jump over the gorge. The expert jumper would be reliable, but can make it suspenseful by jumping the gorge while shooting her bow midair.

The good safe-cracker can pick a lock suspensefully with his tools. The expert would pick it reliably, but when his hands are tied behind his back and he improvises his tools it is suspenseful.

The good diplomat can broker trade agreements suspensefully. An expert diplomat would broker the same agreement reliably, but by a suspenseful success also put a stop to the family vendetta that threatens the agreement in the future...

 

[GreyICE]

I want the magic users to be able to do a variety of strange and unpredictable things, like they can in Ars Magica, Mage, or Dresden Files FATE game.

I hate how the magic users end up breaking the game whenever they can do a variety of strange and unpredictable things even when those strange and unpredictable things are qualified into a limited number of spells.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't want characters defined by their magic items. Yet I want magic items to be powerful relative to character abilities.

Another friend of mine has this one.

I suggested that characters should have features that magic items don't provide the features which define PCs. AKA make the fighter more than an accurate HP sponge.

But she likes simple characters. Another person who wants the near impossible.

 

[billd91]

This one is certainly topical. I think its something we'd all LIKE.

IMHO part of the problem is that all magic items were thrilling back in that dim day when we all first played and the rules were obscure and rather unimportant. The thrill of finding stuff was great, but it wore off once we realized that the result of finding all that loot was you were invincible and there were only so many times that Gauntlets of Ogre Power were interesting.

Everyone wants to recapture that, but it will just never happen. We're not 12 and playing out int the woods in a tent anymore.

Speak for yourself. I may know what powers items have now and don't have quite the sense of not knowing what I'm getting into with a cool magic item, but that doesn't stop me from say "Awesome!" when I get one. It doesn't stop me from imagining my PC doing fantastic things with that item just because I know how it works in the ruleset.

There's a big difference between well-informed and jaded.

 

[Cybit]

I think they should differentiate weapon types by giving each a little special associated with it. Swords are for parrying, axes are for heavy damage, hammers are for dazing opponents. These things could activate on a critical hit, or be intrinsic abilities.

My clash is in the skills system. I dislike Skill Mastery for Rogues because it makes them a bit boring, and yet I'd like to see a skill advancement system built around 'this is your minimum skill check' to represent training.

Based on hearsay, I would state that each weapon having a special intrinsic ability to those classes who are trained in using weapons is something that is under work.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Let experts be reliable but allow them to add suspenseful riders or extras, such as allowing you to climb at higher speed by taking a higher AC.


A good jumper has a suspenseful jump over the gorge. The expert jumper would be reliable, but can make it suspenseful by jumping the gorge while shooting her bow midair.

The good safe-cracker can pick a lock suspensefully with his tools. The expert would pick it reliably, but when his hands are tied behind his back and he improvises his tools it is suspenseful.

The good diplomat can broker trade agreements suspensefully. An expert diplomat would broker the same agreement reliably, but by a suspenseful success also put a stop to the family vendetta that threatens the agreement in the future...

Other possibilities exist as well, like 'failing better' (the expert fails elegantly or still partly succeeds, the newb creates a catastrophe). I like the 'add some special sauce' concept though. I think 4e kind of missed out on that, though martial practices and skill powers were partly there. One problem was that feats are pretty limited and useful, and they'd work well for this kind of stuff, but you really don't want to be so narrow in what you pick with them in 4e. If the feat system is fixed so that they're less central then they can be used to get 'expertise' where that gives you some of these narrow tricks. There could be more of these then as well.

I want the magic users to be able to do a variety of strange and unpredictable things, like they can in Ars Magica, Mage, or Dresden Files FATE game.

I hate how the magic users end up breaking the game whenever they can do a variety of strange and unpredictable things even when those strange and unpredictable things are qualified into a limited number of spells.

The logical answer of course is to make every caster quite niche. I know we've pretty well sorted that out before though.

Speak for yourself. I may know what powers items have now and don't have quite the sense of not knowing what I'm getting into with a cool magic item, but that doesn't stop me from say "Awesome!" when I get one. It doesn't stop me from imagining my PC doing fantastic things with that item just because I know how it works in the ruleset.

There's a big difference between well-informed and jaded.

Yeah, OTOH there's still a certain degree of 'magic' that the game has when you're playing at first that does wear off with time. Now and then you can recapture it, and there are other things to enjoy about playing, but often I think people both want magic items that say "WOW" but at the same time the way you get that once you know the game is for them to be powerful, otherwise what you do with it is pretty routine or just a minor add on to the routine. There IS a sort of insolvable dilemma there.