D&D 5E How it plays vs How it feels and looks

[Li Shenron]

Contrast that with 3e's magic item creation and magic market assumptions. At that point, players started really taking ownership of what their PCs had and devised schedules of regular upgrades as the wealth rolled in (according to appropriate guidelines). Those of us who ran 3e games like we ran 1e/2e games, probably still didn't see huge issues with items defining characters. But for those DMs and tables who pursued the new assumptions, perhaps even seeing the WBL and item values as a system like point-buy super power buying in Champions, probably developed the impression of items defining characters most.

It's more than an impression when you get players that plan ahead their magic item equipment purchases in the same way they plan all level-based features progression.

What I want out of D&D Next's magic items is a renewed sense that items are not regular power-ups on the route to higher level. I want a renewed sense that they are not an entitlement but a reward, usually serendipitous, for adventuring and surviving. I want a renewed sense that players can't safely plan for particular magic items unless they play through quests for obtain them (though I accept that payment in advance is also acceptable as in the case of Perseus being equipped with magic items in order to accomplish the quest of killing Medusa or Frodo being equipped by Galadriel to sneak into Mordor).

If I could get all that you say, I'll be really happy as a player!

 

[slobo777]

Yes this one is tough.

Like @GameDoc said, you have to determine how much your deities know about their clerics.

For example, deities avatars can read their cleric's thoughts well granting spells but the deepness of perception is determined by focus. An avatar with a lot of clerics will not peer though every cleric's, mind without a reason. So a cleric who lays low can snag magic from multiple sources but high bishop might get a weekly inspection.

I'm not a fan of "handed down by angels" magic. I prefer channeling to be available due to purity of soul and true believing. So a secret demon-worshipper would have to "fake it" - pretend to pray to the good guys, and secretly be stealing life force from somewhere so that the miracle heals still work after a fashion. Probably try to get out of healing-the-poor duties too . . .

That depends on the conundrum-poster's meaning of "active" though. A deity could still be the source of power here, but there would be a separation of the human/demi-human social order in the church, and the celestial order which it apparently worshipped. This also gives room for denominations and heresies which also have access to a deities power.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Yeah, OTOH there's still a certain degree of 'magic' that the game has when you're playing at first that does wear off with time. Now and then you can recapture it, and there are other things to enjoy about playing, but often I think people both want magic items that say "WOW" but at the same time the way you get that once you know the game is for them to be powerful, otherwise what you do with it is pretty routine or just a minor add on to the routine. There IS a sort of insolvable dilemma there.

I think a partial solution is what they're starting to do with the 5e items: take out the default +x part of magic items, so that the only thing you focus on when you see a new magic item is the thing that makes it unique. A Flametongue or a Spellguard Shield doesn't even have a +x bonus, but they're still cool items.

The 4e solution of daily item powers works as well, when it doesn't overcomplicate the system.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I want gods to have active involvement with their clergy, but I also want priests who secretly worship demons etc.

That's a tough one. Maybe the gods normally have a good read on their clerics, but that aspects get disrupted from the demon side? Let's compare it to a mosquito, where you don't notice it right away. The demons have a technique that blocks the deity from noticing the corruption unless specific focus is turned to that cleric?

That's a tough one. You have to really consider to what degree the gods are omnipotent/omniscient with regards to their clerics.

That's true. This will probably vary from game to game. If they're basically all-knowing, the only way I can think of to stop it is by another deity intervening, or perhaps direct involvement from the planes? Maybe the demons can use one of those methods in some way.

So a secret demon-worshipper would have to "fake it" - pretend to pray to the good guys, and secretly be stealing life force from somewhere so that the miracle heals still work after a fashion. Probably try to get out of healing-the-poor duties too . . .

This is another good way to handle it. Have a Cleric of [demon worship] mixed in with a Church of [Good deity], and part of the powers granted to them by [demon worship] is hiding their true intentions and purposes.

Anyways, interesting stuff. As always, play what you like

 

[GameDoc]

Yes this one is tough.

Like [MENTION=53915]GameDoc[/MENTION] said, you have to determine how much your deities know about their clerics.

For example, deities avatars can read their cleric's thoughts well granting spells but the deepness of perception is determined by focus. An avatar with a lot of clerics will not peer though every cleric's, mind without a reason. So a cleric who lays low can snag magic from multiple sources but high bishop might get a weekly inspection.

The warlock class adds a wrinkle here. Would you be talking about a cleric who makes a pack with a devil or demon to gain power? And if so, how does he pass that off as divine, given the different nature and effects of that (presumably warlock) power?

I think that would be a pretty sweet specialty - a cleric or paladin who has made a pact with another type of immortal being under his god's nose.

EDIT: I guess that's too specific for a specialty, since they are supposed to be open to all classes. You would have to have a specialty like "Secret Pact Adept" that grants some warlock like powers. Part of the terms are that the pact must be kept secret. Then anyone could take it, but it would be an especially interesting one for a cleric.

 

[RedShirtNo5.1]

That depends on the conundrum-poster's meaning of "active" though. A deity could still be the source of power here, but there would be a separation of the human/demi-human social order in the church, and the celestial order which it apparently worshipped. This also gives room for denominations and heresies which also have access to a deities power.

To me, active means that a deity would at least answer a commune spell asking whether something constitutes a heresy.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes this one is tough.

Like [MENTION=53915]GameDoc[/MENTION] said, you have to determine how much your deities know about their clerics.

For example, deities avatars can read their cleric's thoughts well granting spells but the deepness of perception is determined by focus. An avatar with a lot of clerics will not peer though every cleric's, mind without a reason. So a cleric who lays low can snag magic from multiple sources but high bishop might get a weekly inspection.

Why does it all have to be determined? I don't feel any need to determine anything beyond what makes the story go forward. If a player for some reason is bound and determined to do a minute inspection of the rules of the game world then he or she can come up with an explanation that suites him or her. I'm not really interested in a game that keeps limiting itself by insisting on trying to explain everything. It just isn't necessary and it can be quite limiting.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm not a fan of "handed down by angels" magic. I prefer channeling to be available due to purity of soul and true believing. So a secret demon-worshipper would have to "fake it" - pretend to pray to the good guys, and secretly be stealing life force from somewhere so that the miracle heals still work after a fashion. Probably try to get out of healing-the-poor duties too . . .

That depends on the conundrum-poster's meaning of "active" though. A deity could still be the source of power here, but there would be a separation of the human/demi-human social order in the church, and the celestial order which it apparently worshipped. This also gives room for denominations and heresies which also have access to a deities power.

Well in my world, the avatars are still pretty the highest tier of touchable divine.

But it still comes down to the definition of active.

Luckily my world has the spellgranter as requiring time and action to be all knowing of their priests. So the Avatar of Fire would not have the time to check all 3000 of his cleric every day and the lower level ones could sneak in corruption. There are a noticeable amount of sneaky cleric/warlocks in my world.

The warlock class adds a wrinkle here. Would you be talking about a cleric who makes a pack with a devil or demon to gain power? And if so, how does he pass that off as divine, given the different nature and effects of that (presumably warlock) power?

It really comes down to the activity, power, and knowing of the divine granter.

 

[Someone]

The warlock class adds a wrinkle here. Would you be talking about a cleric who makes a pack with a devil or demon to gain power? And if so, how does he pass that off as divine, given the different nature and effects of that (presumably warlock) power?

I think that would be a pretty sweet specialty - a cleric or paladin who has made a pact with another type of immortal being under his god's nose.

You know you've become a god when your warlocks start healing people.

 

[Minigiant]

You know you've become a god when your warlocks start healing people.

Proof of ultimate power = Your pact subjects go from tricky damage dealers to armored healbots.