How long should a round represent?

[TwinBahamut]

I don't see how abstract time can work since you'll always have a certain maximum movement in a round. You can't just "reskin" 3e/4e rounds to 1 minute or your characters run in slow motion.

Actually, I disagree with this. You don't necessarily need to have a maximum range of movement determined by the literal "how fast can a character move in a given span of time" method. This is exactly why I argued that rounds should be a measure of stamina, rather than time. If they measure stamina, then it opens up a wide variety of forms of movement with different costs and benefits.

Let me pull out an example from a videogame that uses very abstract rounds: an alternate-world WW2 RPG called Valkyria Chronicles. I won't get into the details, but the rounds in this game have absolutely nothing to do with time (one character's action may take three seconds or five minutes depending on what you do, and time flows in real time during this process, and characters may even take multiple actions in a given round of play). Some characters, such as Scouts, can move very, very far during their turn because they are lightly equipped endurance runners moving at a light jog, and others, like Shocktroopers, move quickly but only for short distances because they are heavily-equipped and move at a sprint. Scouts let you position much more effectively, but Troopers are better at quickly moving past enemy fire. In a system like D&D traditionally has had, it would be impossible to have that kind of difference.

Basically, abstract time rounds require an abstraction, but they can still make perfect sense as long as rounds are still well defined.

Hmm... This might lead to an interesting initiative system assuming you have movable initiative tokens.

Your initiative is bounded from 1-20, with getting surprise adding 15 to your initiative roll - initiatives over 20 are taken as surprise rounds (with initiative dropping by 20 for each surprise round - so if you get a total initiative of 43 you get to act twice before the 1-20 scale).

Instead of dropping 20 in initiative each time you act, low level fighters and rogues would drop only 18 or even 15, and high level ones might drop as little as 10 - whereas the high level wizard would still be dropping 18 or 20.

Or would that be too complex. (I'm thinking initiative scales of "Non-combatant" - 25 drop per action, "Average" - 20, "Fast" - 18, "Amazing" - 15, and "Incredible" - 10. And still 6 seconds per round.

This kind of initiative system is certainly a very common one, but mostly in videogames where the game can take care of the initiative tracking for you. Some of those go so far as to have the weight of your equipment significantly affect this number, with each action or weapon (even minor actions) also having an added cost that affects the time it takes until your next turn. This can get pretty complicated, so it is hard to recommend it for tabletop games where this all has to be tracked by hand.

Still, this kind of system might work, if it could be presented in an easy-to-use manner.

 

[GM Dave]

Hmm... This might lead to an interesting initiative system assuming you have movable initiative tokens.

Your initiative is bounded from 1-20, with getting surprise adding 15 to your initiative roll - initiatives over 20 are taken as surprise rounds (with initiative dropping by 20 for each surprise round - so if you get a total initiative of 43 you get to act twice before the 1-20 scale).

Instead of dropping 20 in initiative each time you act, low level fighters and rogues would drop only 18 or even 15, and high level ones might drop as little as 10 - whereas the high level wizard would still be dropping 18 or 20.

Or would that be too complex. (I'm thinking initiative scales of "Non-combatant" - 25 drop per action, "Average" - 20, "Fast" - 18, "Amazing" - 15, and "Incredible" - 10. And still 6 seconds per round.

Hackmaster Basic (Kenzer Co) uses a running initiative.

Spells and weapons all have different amounts of initiative that they use. You can even use a weapon in different ways (jabs take less time then full swings).

Each time you choose to move takes a bit of initiative.

If you choose to change your current action choice then there is a delay of a certain number of initiative before you can start the new action.

There are plenty of GM tools that people have designed to help with this system.

 

[Hassassin]

Actually, I disagree with this. You don't necessarily need to have a maximum range of movement determined by the literal "how fast can a character move in a given span of time" method. This is exactly why I argued that rounds should be a measure of stamina, rather than time. If they measure stamina, then it opens up a wide variety of forms of movement with different costs and benefits.

So, what, characters would only have a movement speed per second of minute and would move a different distance depending on how long this particular round is? Or how would you decide how far a character can move?

Let me pull out an example from a videogame that uses very abstract rounds: an alternate-world WW2 RPG called Valkyria Chronicles. I won't get into the details, but the rounds in this game have absolutely nothing to do with time (one character's action may take three seconds or five minutes depending on what you do, and time flows in real time during this process, and characters may even take multiple actions in a given round of play).

Basically, it probably has 30ms or so "rounds" in the game engine and each action takes multiple rounds. That would require a lot of tracking in a P&P game. I think rounds should instead be long enough to cover most interesting actions (6s in good), but longer tasks can still take multiple rounds.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hackmaster Basic (Kenzer Co) uses a running initiative.

Spells and weapons all have different amounts of initiative that they use. You can even use a weapon in different ways (jabs take less time then full swings).

Each time you choose to move takes a bit of initiative.

If you choose to change your current action choice then there is a delay of a certain number of initiative before you can start the new action.

There are plenty of GM tools that people have designed to help with this system.

That's a "Shot Cost" system as used in Feng Shui, explicitely not what I am talking about. I'm talking about turn based with you acting all at once for one turn and all starting characters having approximately the same turn length. And the turns are based on the human reassessment patterns and the decision to make the attack rather than how long the physical action takes. This is because the rate determining step is deciding what to do next - and that realistically breaks the combat into turns.

 

[GM Dave]

That's a "Shot Cost" system as used in Feng Shui, explicitely not what I am talking about. I'm talking about turn based with you acting all at once for one turn and all starting characters having approximately the same turn length. And the turns are based on the human reassessment patterns and the decision to make the attack rather than how long the physical action takes. This is because the rate determining step is deciding what to do next - and that realistically breaks the combat into turns.

I was thinking of the Hackmaster Basic system with the way the levels improve your time to act on a round.

Rogues have a better initiative die then say the Wizard.

Fighters improve through weapon training the time it takes to use prepare and use a weapon for a new attack.

Higher levels grow in speed and capability as they are more experienced at making decisions and better at wielding their weapons.

 

[TwinBahamut]

So, what, characters would only have a movement speed per second of minute and would move a different distance depending on how long this particular round is? Or how would you decide how far a character can move?

Err, no, no one lists movement speed by minute or second. Tracking time would be a strange thing to do in a system where you are trying to avoid those concerns. Instead, you simply ignore the amount of time things take completely. No tracking of minutes or seconds at all. Charaters would be able to perform different move actions such as "sprint for 30ft, with various benefits to make the character less vulnerable", or "jog for 80ft, but being vulnerable in the process". Both could be performed in the same length of round, regardless of the fact that the jog would clearly take much more time than the sprint.

Time is simply not the only way of constraining character actions in a round.

Basically, it probably has 30ms or so "rounds" in the game engine and each action takes multiple rounds. That would require a lot of tracking in a P&P game. I think rounds should instead be long enough to cover most interesting actions (6s in good), but longer tasks can still take multiple rounds.

That really isn't how the game works at all...

If you want to see the game in action, this video shows a lot of the basic gameplay. Note that each character in the game can make one action and move until the orange gauge at the bottom-left side of the screen is empty. Enemies react in real time. Time passes during a character's turn (and enemies launch intercept fire in real time), but has no bearing on what a character can do during their turn or how far they can move. The overall round structure is not affected by time, either.

 

[Buugipopuu]

Hmm... This might lead to an interesting initiative system assuming you have movable initiative tokens.

Your initiative is bounded from 1-20, with getting surprise adding 15 to your initiative roll - initiatives over 20 are taken as surprise rounds (with initiative dropping by 20 for each surprise round - so if you get a total initiative of 43 you get to act twice before the 1-20 scale).

Instead of dropping 20 in initiative each time you act, low level fighters and rogues would drop only 18 or even 15, and high level ones might drop as little as 10 - whereas the high level wizard would still be dropping 18 or 20.

Or would that be too complex. (I'm thinking initiative scales of "Non-combatant" - 25 drop per action, "Average" - 20, "Fast" - 18, "Amazing" - 15, and "Incredible" - 10. And still 6 seconds per round.

High initiative granting multiple actions per round will probably lead to Initiative being the best stat by far. Look at Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy X and Phantom Brave, which use exactly the system you describe, and speedsters rule all those games. No matter what you're trying to do, extra actions help you do it, while common wisdom states "Never Dump Con" in D&D, because obviously you can't play if you're dead, "Never Dump Dex" would replace it with high Dex granting extra actions. If the rogue gets to go three times before you do, it doesn't matter what you can do, because you're probably dead before you can act, even if the rogue isn't very good at his job.

 

[kitsune9]

Simple question: how long do you think one combat round should represent in the game world? 6 seconds? A minute? Somewhere in between?

4 min and 17 sec.

I think my personal preference is what based upon what I get to do in a round. If we scale down to just a move or an action, then I think 6 seconds is okay with me. If we have a move plus an action, I think 10 seconds or so. If we have a minor, move, and standard action, I'm thinking around 15 seconds. But I have to accept that if have longer rounds for each player that there should be opportunities for simultaneous actions or interrupt actions.

 

[Neonchameleon]

High initiative granting multiple actions per round will probably lead to Initiative being the best stat by far. Look at Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy X and Phantom Brave, which use exactly the system you describe, and speedsters rule all those games. No matter what you're trying to do, extra actions help you do it, while common wisdom states "Never Dump Con" in D&D, because obviously you can't play if you're dead, "Never Dump Dex" would replace it with high Dex granting extra actions. If the rogue gets to go three times before you do, it doesn't matter what you can do, because you're probably dead before you can act, even if the rogue isn't very good at his job.

High Initiative doesn't grant multiple actions/round. What an initiative score > 20 means is the equivalent of a surprise round. It gives you free actions until your initiative drops into the normal range. Your initiative count is whatever it ends up with after the standard actions drop away.

This means that high dex and a lot of raw speed is incredibly effective against mooks. Drop them before they get a chance to act. But on the other hand it's not that useful against dragons who will take at least a few rounds to kill and you've traded off raw damage for the extra opening attacks.

Huh. And I've just created the backstab and sneak attack mechanics. If you spend an entire round hidden you get to reroll initiative - which can give the thief back this flurry if he can pull it off.