D&D 5E How many fans want a 5E Warlord?

[Duganson]

The poll is a real barnstormer for me, you see, I love the Warlord and Lemon Curry equally... so torn.

But seriously, the Warlord class has to be repainted from the 'game-y' alt-cleric it was in 4E into a class whose soul purpose is to carry on the narrative. I can see there being well written, well balanced class abilities that break the logjams common in combat (terrain, turtling enemies, etc), clear up silly 'I'ma do my own thing' skill fracas common to adventuring parties by incentivising using the the 'help' action, and generally making the game smoother by their presence.

my 2 pence.

 

[Mistwell]

 

[Talmek]

I needed a "take it or leave it" option. My favorite thing from 4e was the warlord class (I played one after a Ranger and had more fun than in any other class previously) but it was more for the "cleric that can <sort of> stand up in melee" approach rather than any other special ability or what have you.

I'd personally love to see a warlord class, but I'm not so attached to it that I wouldn't continue playing if I didn't have it.

 

[El Mahdi]

I can see there being well written, well balanced class abilities that break the logjams common in combat (terrain, turtling enemies, etc), clear up silly 'I'ma do my own thing' skill fracas common to adventuring parties by incentivising using the the 'help' action, and generally making the game smoother by their presence.

I like the idea of "breaking the logjams"; I think that can be addressed with Combat Maneuvers (like Battlemaster maneuvers).

As to generally making the game smoother by their presence, I've included an ability that basically grants a wild-card use of advantage, once per round, usable by anybody in the group, but requiring the approval of the whole group (requiring teamwork). Not cumulative. If the group can't agree to its use, it gets wasted for the round.

I reeeeeeeeally like the idea of incentivizing the "Help" action. I'm going to have to steal that and explore that a bit...


Really good stuff, Duganson.

 

[BryonD]

I've loved video games since I was a little girl, so I'd say video gamey isn't a negative term unless you're specifically making comparisons to bad games (such as E.T. for Atari, or Dr. Jekyl & Mr. Hyde).

sure. And I respect that.
But for quite some time comparing 4e (or 4e related mechanics or concepts) was fighting words presented only by bad people spreading false slander.

My personal attitude is that paying attention to other game media is quite important and stealing good ideas from other sources is a great plan.

But video games have some significantly different presumptions involved and it takes vastly more than simply being popular in video games to make something a good addition to a TTRPG.
(It seems quite a few people here agree)

But the case being made that I directly responded to was simply that it was good for video games therefore it should be good for D&D. Which is both bad logic and a pretty remarkable reversal considering all the vitriol that has been slung suggesting anything remotely like that in the past.

 

[MechaPilot]

sure. And I respect that.
But for quite some time comparing 4e (or 4e related mechanics or concepts) was fighting words presented only by bad people spreading false slander.

As a fan of 4e (I enjoy every edition I've played, but I still consider 4e my favorite) the only reason I ever considered calling 4e "video-gamey" as fighting words is because it was often used to imply that 4e was less of an RPG.

My personal attitude is that paying attention to other game media is quite important and stealing good ideas from other sources is a great plan.

But video games have some significantly different presumptions involved and it takes vastly more than simply being popular in video games to make something a good addition to a TTRPG.
(It seems quite a few people here agree)

Certainly some video games do have different presumptions that make it difficult to port over to D&D some of their innovations. I will agree that popularity alone is not a good enough reason to try to port a video game idea over to D&D. That said, I will point out that several video games, particularly the RPGs, have been inspired by or imitating D&D. I recall that the Bard's Tale and Wizardry computer games were so heavily D&D inspired that I felt like I was playing D&D the video game. They even used randomized stats, the classic races and classes, ACs ranging from 10 to -10, and they had several spells that seemed like they were copied straight from the D&D books.

But the case being made that I directly responded to was simply that it was good for video games therefore it should be good for D&D. Which is both bad logic and a pretty remarkable reversal considering all the vitriol that has been slung suggesting anything remotely like that in the past.

I agree.



I do want to add that there are many remarkable things about people's preferences and they way they are used to try to offend or insult others.

Take for example the anime comparison. It always bugs me when people try to use that as an insult. Anime shows are usually based on manga series, and manga is just another venue for fantasy storytelling. To modern audiences who have greater access to overseas sources of fantasy fiction, manga is as a valid a place to draw from as the books cited as inspirations by the early editions.

 

[BryonD]

As a fan of 4e (I enjoy every edition I've played, but I still consider 4e my favorite) the only reason I ever considered calling 4e "video-gamey" as fighting words is because it was often used to imply that 4e was less of an RPG.

Fair enough. I'm just commenting on the history of conversation on these boards, nothing personal to you at all.

Certainly some video games do have different presumptions that make it difficult to port over to D&D some of their innovations. I will agree that popularity alone is not a good enough reason to try to port a video game idea over to D&D. That said, I will point out that several video games, particularly the RPGs, have been inspired by or imitating D&D. I recall that the Bard's Tale and Wizardry computer games were so heavily D&D inspired that I felt like I was playing D&D the video game. They even used randomized stats, the classic races and classes, ACs ranging from 10 to -10, and they had several spells that seemed like they were copied straight from the D&D books.

True. But not really relevant.
Both media do (and should) borrow from each other frequently. I think that is obvious.
I think trying to port a TTRPG into a computer game without adaptation would be completely absurd. But taking big chunks of idea and adapting a computer game around that can be a different matter entirely.
The specific topic here is healing and the standard concept of hand waved healing in computer games is accepted by the overwhelming majority of fans (myself included) while some very significant (if not majority) of money-paying TTRPG fans find that same approach to be something which should be avoided in TTRPGs (myself included). So the, quite true, fact that ACs and stats, etc... fit nicely in either media does not help advance a conversation on healing systems.

I agree.
I do want to add that there are many remarkable things about people's preferences and they way they are used to try to offend or insult others.

Take for example the anime comparison. It always bugs me when people try to use that as an insult. Anime shows are usually based on manga series, and manga is just another venue for fantasy storytelling. To modern audiences who have greater access to overseas sources of fantasy fiction, manga is as a valid a place to draw from as the books cited as inspirations by the early editions.

Interesting example.
While I certainly would not say the ENWorld history for the anime topic is on par with the video-gamey topic, it does also exist in a similar manner.
There was a great deal of teeth gnashing over the idea that many found 4e art "too anime". I didn't have a strong opinion on that topic myself. But I did find it quite amusing that the pro-4E side (again, not including you here) was focused on being outraged over the objective wrongness of this subjective opinion and rather than try to take this feedback to adapt their game's presentation and grow the fanbase, they just threw stones and ranted.
There is a parallel to the video-gamey and healing conversations there.

 

[MechaPilot]

Certainly some video games do have different presumptions that make it difficult to port over to D&D some of their innovations. I will agree that popularity alone is not a good enough reason to try to port a video game idea over to D&D. That said, I will point out that several video games, particularly the RPGs, have been inspired by or imitating D&D. I recall that the Bard's Tale and Wizardry computer games were so heavily D&D inspired that I felt like I was playing D&D the video game. They even used randomized stats, the classic races and classes, ACs ranging from 10 to -10, and they had several spells that seemed like they were copied straight from the D&D books.

True. But not really relevant.
Both media do (and should) borrow from each other frequently. I think that is obvious.
I think trying to port a TTRPG into a computer game without adaptation would be completely absurd. But taking big chunks of idea and adapting a computer game around that can be a different matter entirely.
The specific topic here is healing and the standard concept of hand waved healing in computer games is accepted by the overwhelming majority of fans (myself included) while some very significant (if not majority) of money-paying TTRPG fans find that same approach to be something which should be avoided in TTRPGs (myself included). So the, quite true, fact that ACs and stats, etc... fit nicely in either media does not help advance a conversation on healing systems.

I think there's some relevance. It makes sense to me that video games that directly borrow from or are heavily inspired by TTRPG are more likely to have innovations that are palatable to TTRPG fans. Take for example, Dragon Quest. In Dragon Quest, you can regain all your HPs by resting for a night at the inn (if I recall correctly, this was the case in at least one of the Final Fantasy games as well). Based on 5e's overnight healing being the default, I'm inclined to think that most table-top D&D players would have accepted that innovation. In a like manner, consider the red potions in the Legend of Zelda. Although people will have different preferences about availability, I don't think any table-top D&D player would object to the existence of a potion that can full-heal a character.

I do want to add that there are many remarkable things about people's preferences and they way they are used to try to offend or insult others.

Take for example the anime comparison. It always bugs me when people try to use that as an insult. Anime shows are usually based on manga series, and manga is just another venue for fantasy storytelling. To modern audiences who have greater access to overseas sources of fantasy fiction, manga is as a valid a place to draw from as the books cited as inspirations by the early editions.

Interesting example.
While I certainly would not say the ENWorld history for the anime topic is on par with the video-gamey topic, it does also exist in a similar manner.
There was a great deal of teeth gnashing over the idea that many found 4e art "too anime". I didn't have a strong opinion on that topic myself. But I did find it quite amusing that the pro-4E side (again, not including you here) was focused on being outraged over the objective wrongness of this subjective opinion and rather than try to take this feedback to adapt their game's presentation and grow the fanbase, they just threw stones and ranted.
There is a parallel to the video-gamey and healing conversations there.

There were certainly bad actors among both the fans of 4e and its detractors. Specifically commenting on the 4e art, as a fan of anime and manga I don't actually see an anime presence in the art. I do see a strong western comic book influence in the art, particularly in the trend toward action shots, as well as in the posing of some of the female characters (like the magic using lady on the cover of the 1st PHB). But I also see some older school influence as well. The lady sitting on a throne in the skill section reminds me more of the AD&D 2e art than it does comic book art.

 

[BryonD]

I don't think any table-top D&D player would object to the existence of a potion that can full-heal a character.

This is a significant moving of the goals posts from "eating cheese wheels".

But I also see some older school influence as well. The lady sitting on a throne in the skill section reminds me more of the AD&D 2e art than it does comic book art.

As I said, I don't have a strong opinion on this matter. No need to persuade me.

 

[MechaPilot]

This is a significant moving of the goals posts from "eating cheese wheels".

It's not a moving of goal posts. It's an example of my hypothesis: that innovations from video games that borrow heavily from or are heavily inspired by TTRPGs are likely to be more palatable to fans of TTRPGs. Furthermore, my hypothesis was posed in relation to your supposition that video games heavily borrowing from or being heavily inspired by TTRPGs was irrelevant to the discussion.